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Post by Rob Allen on Nov 11, 2020 12:26:44 GMT -5
I didn't realize that the red-headed Rawhide Kid wasn't supposed to be the same guy as the blond one. The first that I saw of them was in B&W reprints, so I didn't even realize the difference in hair color. Clearly one of them was older and as I recall he owned a ranch and had a ward of some kind, so I assumed it was just how the young gunfighter would turn out upon reaching maturity. One thing, though: that older Rawhide Kid wore the same buttoned shirt as the young one, unlike what we see in the images above. Is it possible that the reprints featuring the "old" Rawhide Kid were slightly modified to better resemble the young one? Or did both wear the same type of clothes at some point? Yes, when they reprinted stories of the first Rawhide Kid, they altered the art to make him look like the second Rawhide Kid - if they had the time & resources to do it. Some of the reprints have this note in the GCD: "An editorial note on the splash page explains that this story is from a time when the Kid settled down for a short period and took up ranching with a young friend." Most of the stories from Rawhide Kid #7, 10, 11 and 15, and one story from #12, were reprinted in the 70s, mostly in Mighty Marvel Western. |
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Post by MWGallaher on Nov 11, 2020 12:59:31 GMT -5
The Quest for the Second Issue:
Assuming there was a second issue of Western Team-Up prepared but abandoned on the abrupt cancellation of the series, is there anywhere Marvel might have published it? Well, the most likely place would have been in an issue of Rawhide’s own comic, assuming that Rawhide was going to be one of the co-stars of every issue, like Spider-Man (mostly!) and the Thing were in their team-up books. And just half a year after we’d have expected a second issue, this shows up on the spinner racks: Rawhide Kid #121, July 1974:  This issue promises Rawhide side-by-side with Kid Colt, Outlaw on the cover! And it boldly promises “the wildest, wooliest western team-up of all time!” That’s got to be it, right? But eagerly open it up to page one and you’ll see “The Rawhide Kid Meets the Two-Gun Kid”, reprinted from Rawhide Kid #40, from 1964.  The Two-Gun Kid?! Maybe it’s a short reprint and the second feature is the Kid Colt story? Nope, the back-up is “Growler Joe Meets the Stranger", from Cowboy Action #5. There is no sign of Kid Colt anywhere, despite what the cover says and shows. We get a "western team-up", but not that particular team. How could they get away with this?! Promising one guest star on the cover and featuring an entirely different one on the inside?! Rawhide Kid stops running letter columns around this time, so no reader complaints about the substitution are available. But it’s a tantalizing hint—that cover was prepared for something, but it could have been intended to cover a reprint of issue 50, February 1966:  Inconclusive. I wouldn’t hang my hat on this being convincing evidence that there was a second issue of Western Team-Up we hadn’t seen yet. But conclusive evidence is on the way, pardners!
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Post by MWGallaher on Nov 11, 2020 17:25:27 GMT -5
I didn't realize that the red-headed Rawhide Kid wasn't supposed to be the same guy as the blond one. The first that I saw of them was in B&W reprints, so I didn't even realize the difference in hair color. Clearly one of them was older and as I recall he owned a ranch and had a ward of some kind, so I assumed it was just how the young gunfighter would turn out upon reaching maturity. One thing, though: that older Rawhide Kid wore the same buttoned shirt as the young one, unlike what we see in the images above. Is it possible that the reprints featuring the "old" Rawhide Kid were slightly modified to better resemble the young one? Or did both wear the same type of clothes at some point? Yes, when they reprinted stories of the first Rawhide Kid, they altered the art to make him look like the second Rawhide Kid - if they had the time & resources to do it. Some of the reprints have this note in the GCD: "An editorial note on the splash page explains that this story is from a time when the Kid settled down for a short period and took up ranching with a young friend." Most of the stories from Rawhide Kid #7, 10, 11 and 15, and one story from #12, were reprinted in the 70s, mostly in Mighty Marvel Western.  |
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Post by MWGallaher on Nov 12, 2020 5:54:14 GMT -5
The Second Issue Found!
We know that in all likelihood, if Western Team-Up #1 went to press under the assumption that it would be an ongoing bi-monthly series, at least one additional issue would have been in an advanced state of preparation by that time. Comics require a lead time to ensure meeting the printing schedule, and having an issue completed at least two months ahead of publication date is common. Larry Lieber and Vince Colletta were not slow artists; it's unlikely that they triggered the cancellation by cutting it too close to put issue 2 to bed on time. Like most comics publishers, Marvel certainly did write off completed stories, paying the creators for work that they had decided never to print (most of Marvel Fanfare consisted of just those types of written-off productions). But with westerns continuing to run, mostly in reprints, and with quality demands, frankly, lower than those Marvel would tend to apply to their super-hero work, it's not likely that a Lieber/Colletta western story would have been too disappointing to merit publication in their western line-up somewhere. If they had a full issue, there were plenty of places to use it. So, what might we expect to find in a story originally intended for issue 2? - A pairing of different headlining Marvel western characters, likely on roughly equal footing, probably including the Rawhide Kid.
- A page count in the range of 15 or so pages.
- Quite possibly the same primary creative team of Lieber and Colletta, with Thomas editing.
- Published within a year or two of when WTU #2 would have been published—western stories didn’t go dated as quickly as superhero comics did, but Marvel was quickly outgrowing comics in the style of issue 1, and they would have looked conspicuously out-of-place in the late 70’s, although it could have been sneaked in in a later issue of Rawhide Kid, surrounded by reprints.
We find just such a story here: Giant-Size Kid Colt #1, January 1975 “Meet the Manhunter”, 15 pages Larry Lieber, script and art Vince Colletta, inker Jean Izzo, letterer George Roussos, colorist Roy Thomas, editor This is the story which was originally prepared for the never-published Western Team-Up #2. The creative team is the same, and the page count is roughly the same. Assuming that WTU #2 would have had a short reprint to pad the page count, the slight difference in the page count--this story being one page longer--is not surprising. The fact that the story teams Rawhide and Colt lends credence to the theory that the story advertised on the cover to Rawhide Kid #121 was going to print this story, but that it was pulled at the last minute for some unknown reason. I can't imagine why--it seems unlikely that the plan for a Giant-Size series for Kid Colt was being anticipated at that point, since Colt was still in reprints at the time. “Sounds reasonable, M. W.,” you may say, “but it's still speculation. Do you have proof?” I do, indeed! It’s right there on the original art for the story “Meet the Manhunter” published in this issue, most clearly visible in the scans I could find on page 5:  “ GIANT-SIZE KID COLT” is stamped in under the clear hand-written “Western Team-Up”, and the originally penciled-in issue number, “2”, has been overwritten with a “1”. The page number has been changed from 5 to 7, but since this is the 5th page of the story as published, the revision simply reflects that Marvels of that era typically inserted two facing pages of advertising after the third story page. The story title puts Rawhide Kid first, as WTU would have done. We can read Western Team-Up #2, after all!
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Post by MWGallaher on Nov 12, 2020 11:08:29 GMT -5
Giant-Size Kid Colt #1, January 1975 “Meet the Manhunter”, 15 pages Larry Lieber, script and art Vince Colletta, inker Jean Izzo, letterer George Roussos, colorist Roy Thomas, editor  Cover by Larry Lieber and Vince Colletta Or, perhaps in an alternate universe…  Cover by Larry Lieber and Frank Giacoia (mocked up by myself) Summary: Kid Colt is arriving in the town of Kurtesy, a rowdy town but conveniently lacking in law enforcement who might arrest the outlaw. In the town saloon, Colt finds his old acquaintance the Rawhide Kid in the midst of a brawl, and Colt’s happy to assist.  Fleeing the overwhelming numbers, Rawhide delivers a parting shot at one “Joe”, whose brother, Scar Colby, vows vengeance. We shift scene to a big city in the East, where an older cop, Murdock (I wouldn’t be surprised if someone, some time, tied this fellow to Daredevil’s family tree!), tries to arrest the Dolan gang, who are in the process of divvying up their loot from a recent heist. Murdock is winged in the shoulder, and the gang escapes. Interesting to get a big city sequence in a western:  Reporting his failure to Captain Smith, Murdock is ordered to retire, and decides to head out west with his grandson. Rawhide and Colt have eluded their pursuers and decide to stick together for mutual protection. Murdock arrives by train to the frontier, where he intends to take up bounty hunting, aspiring to two of the most notorious outlaws on the wanted list, Rawhide and Colt. He and grandson Billy begin their pursuit, moving from town to town, despite being warned that the pair are out of his league. The manhunters happen upon our co-stars, peaceably asking to join up, since they’re from out east and edgy about riding the trail on their own. Once the “outlaws” are asleep, Murdock implements his plan: he tells Colt that Rawhide was spotted going through Colt’s things, and sure enough, Colt finds his money and pocket watch missing. To Murdock’s disappointment, the two duke it out rather than shoot it out.  It’s quite a brawl, but it ends up a stand-off. Colt won’t duel over a watch and cash, which he recovers anyway, but their friendship is over. Murdock and Billy ride on with Colt after the heroes part ways. Murdock has cut Colt’s stirrup, and the outlaw takes a tumble off his horse into unconsciousness. He awakens in cuffs, learning Murdock’s divide and conquer strategy means Rawhide was as innocent as he claimed. Next target, the Rawhide Kid, who hears that Colt has supposedly shot Billy. Rawhide rides back to help the boy and confront his loco partner. Billy’s lying prone as a decoy, allowing Murdock to get the drop on Rawhide. Leading his prisoners to justice, the foursome are attacked by Scar Colby, who intends to apprehend the fugitives Rawhide and Colt and claim the reward, cutting Murdock and Billy out. Uncowed, Murdock rides in pursuit. At the campsite, Murdock proves effective, coldcocking a guard and freeing (and arming) our co-stars. A lethal shoot-em-all ensues, until Scar holds Billy hostage. Lowering his gun, Colt pulls a fast one, diving at Scar’s ankles and freeing Billy, and dispatching one of the outlaws. Rawhide kills Scar, and Murdock gives up bounty hunting to head back east, letting the men who saved his grandson ride into the sunset.  Comments: So this is what it would have been. Standard Marvel western fare, and I struggle to say anything substantial. We know the trope of the heroes having a misunderstanding and battling each other, then reuniting for the final battle. Rawhide and Colt share about equal panel time, with the real focus on supporting character Murdock, who is very distinctively depicted by Lieber, in his usual competent Kirby imitation abetted by Colletta, doing one of his typical ink jobs. I do like the idea of a naive city-slicker going west to try for the biggest of bounties, and I appreciate that Lieber depicted him as an experienced lawman, rather than an over-his-head amateur underestimating the dangers of the wild west and over-estimating his city-earned book smarts. This issue does have more dynamic action than its predecessor, so that's something. Coming Attractions:Unanswered questions! Was there yet more? More original art!
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 12, 2020 11:54:09 GMT -5
Beautiful job on that mock-up of the cover, MWGallaher! Larry Lieber did indeed capture more than a hint of Kirby in his Westerns, those fight scenes serving as good examples. He could also alter that look to do a nice job on super-heroes, like the Spider-Man and Hulk newspaper strips; the Spider-Man annual in which we learn about Peter's parents; and the first several Thor stories in JIM, for example. He also did horror stories, sf stories, war stories, whatever. I'd argue that he was to early Marvel what Sal Buscema would be to later Marvel, and I'd also argue that he was a better artist. YMMV, of course. True, the story's not anything way out of the ordinary for a team-up or a Marvel Western, but I do agree that the Murdock angle, complete with scenes of him in action back east, is a nice touch. And the surname Murdock is just too cute to be a coincidence. It makes perfect sense that an ancestor of Matt Murdock's would be an Irish cop in New York. (Now if only he'd had a buddy named Grimm.) As usual, an excellent bit of detective work and comics scholarship! PS for anybody: I wasn't an inveterate reader of DC's Starman, but the use of the name Murdock does remind me of the way the name Savage, which had popped up over the years in DC comics (Matt Savage, Trail Boss; Steve Savage, Balloon Buster; and Brian Savage, Scalphunter), was woven into the history of Opal City. Brian did turn out to be Steve's father, IIRC, but I'm not sure if Matt was ever tied in, too. And I wonder, did Vandal Savage somehow get tied in to the mythos? Seems too tempting an Easter egg to ignore. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 12, 2020 12:19:09 GMT -5
Beautiful job on that mock-up of the cover, MWGallaher ! Larry Lieber did indeed capture more than a hint of Kirby in his Westerns, those fight scenes serving as good examples. He could also alter that look to do a nice job on super-heroes, like the Spider-Man and Hulk newspaper strips; the Spider-Man annual in which we learn about Peter's parents; and the first several Thor stories in JIM, for example. He also did horror stories, sf stories, war stories, whatever. I'd argue that he was to early Marvel what Sal Buscema would be to later Marvel, and I'd also argue that he was a better artist. YMMV, of course. True, the story's not anything way out of the ordinary for a team-up or a Marvel Western, but I do agree that the Murdock angle, complete with scenes of him in action back east, is a nice touch. And the surname Murdock is just too cute to be a coincidence. It makes perfect sense that an ancestor of Matt Murdock's would be an Irish cop in New York. (Now if only he'd had a buddy named Grimm.) As usual, an excellent bit of detective work and comics scholarship! PS for anybody: I wasn't an inveterate reader of DC's Starman, but the use of the name Murdock does remind me of the way the name Savage, which had popped up over the years in DC comics (Matt Savage, Trail Boss; Steve Savage, Balloon Buster; and Brian Savage, Scalphunter), was woven into the history of Opal City. Brian did turn out to be Steve's father, IIRC, but I'm not sure if Matt was ever tied in, too. And I wonder, did Vandal Savage somehow get tied in to the mythos? Seems too tempting an Easter egg to ignore. Matt Savage is Steve's grandfather and the father of Brian. Vandal wasn't involved. Even Robinson probably felt that would be too much of a coincidence. As an aside, no experienced lawman is going after criminals with a Derringer. I know they wanted a smaller pistol, to suggest city detective; but, not that small. More than likely would be something like a Colt New Line...  ...which was available in .32 and .38 caliber. By 1889, you had the more modern swing-out cylinders and double-action triggers that became standard on revolvers, especially police and military. Funny enough, the tv series, Hec Ramsey, starring Richard Boone, is a subject over at Atomic Junkshop, in Greg Hatcher's column. The character is an experienced gunfighter and lawman, who comes to a growing, but more established city to become a police constable. He carries a Colt, with a cut down barrel, for faster draw, depending on a rifle for long range. The series has the character using proto-forensics, like plaster casts, fingerprints, microscopes, etc. The series ran as part of the initial bloc of the NBC Mystery Movie wheel, on Sundays, in the early 70s. The pilot and at least a few episodes are on Youtube, if you are curious. The smaller pistol was to reflect more modern police firearms, though, given the time frame, he could have had the more modern Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers, which became police standards. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 12, 2020 13:08:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the Savage tales, codystarbuck. In the same vein, it has long been bandied about, though disputed by many people in the know that Hec Ramsey, the scientific detective of the West, was meant to be Boone's previous character, Paladin, as an older man. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 12, 2020 14:49:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the Savage tales, codystarbuck. In the same vein, it has long been bandied about, though disputed by many people in the know that Hec Ramsey, the scientific detective of the West, was meant to be Boone's previous character, Paladin, as an older man. AWESOME! |
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Post by tartanphantom on Nov 12, 2020 15:15:06 GMT -5
Thanks for the Savage tales, codystarbuck . In the same vein, it has long been bandied about, though disputed by many people in the know that Hec Ramsey, the scientific detective of the West, was meant to be Boone's previous character, Paladin, as an older man.
I've hear that theory too.
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Post by MWGallaher on Nov 12, 2020 21:58:07 GMT -5
I should have pointed out that the cover to Giant-Size Kid Colt #1 was one of those that doesn't accurately depict the contents. Colt and Rawhide are on the outs, but their personal squabble is explicitly limited to hand-to-hand, non-lethal battle, not a generic pistol-drawing showdown in the middle of town. But I don't think any of us readers who were around then trusted the covers to play fair with us.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 12, 2020 22:34:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the Savage tales, codystarbuck . In the same vein, it has long been bandied about, though disputed by many people in the know that Hec Ramsey, the scientific detective of the West, was meant to be Boone's previous character, Paladin, as an older man. Doubt that was the intent; but, it makes for great head-canon stuff. On a similar note is the debate, which has a lot more fuel to it, that John Drake, of Danger Man (aka The Secret Agent, in thhe US) was Number 6, in The Prisoner. Patrick McGoohan always denied it, though, there would be financial reasons for wanting to deny a connection, as they would have to cut in the creators of Danger Man with the profits. Producer George Markstein always claimed it was intended to be John Drake. Further fuel was added when they repurposed an unused script from Danger Man for "The Girl Who Was Death." A recurring character from Danger Man appeared as himself, in the Prisoner episode. Of course, there is similar speculation that the character Patrick Cargill played in "Many Happy Returns," Thorpe, who works for Number 6's former masters, is the same character as Cargill's Number 2, in "Hammer into Anvil." There is also speculation, which doesn't really work but is fun, that Edward Woodward's Robert McCall, from The Equalizer, was the retired David Callan, from Callan. Problem there is, one, McCall, aside from Woodward and the profession, isn't very like Callan (more refined character, more likely to have come from the middle class, working for an American agency). The other problem is that Woodward did a reunion special for Callan, called "Wet Job," where you find out what the character had been doing since the end of the series, as well as his stooge/gopher Lonely. I still say Roger Moore's James Bond is actually Simon Templar, filling in the role after "the other guy" was killed. |
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Post by MWGallaher on Nov 12, 2020 22:54:59 GMT -5
The story from Giant-Size Kid Colt #1, which would have been in Western Team-Up #2, was reprinted in Kid Colt Outlaw #229, April 1979, under this nifty Gene Colan/Bob McLeod cover:  Western Team-Up #1 has evidently not been reprinted in the US, but the covers from the first issues of both Western Team-Up and Giant-Size Kid Colt were included in Marvel Firsts: The 70's Volume 2, in 2011:  |
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Post by MWGallaher on Nov 13, 2020 6:47:12 GMT -5
Before moving on, let's look at some of the original art by Larry Lieber and Vince Colletta for Western Team-Up #2 Giant-Size Kid Colt #1. First, the opening page. On several of these pages, there's a note to fix Colt's vest. A close look at the art suggests to me that Colletta inked the black areas with cross-hatching, and the proof-reader, presumably editor Roy Thomas, wanted those inked with solid splotches, which appear to be added in over the cross-hatch.  Not a particularly impressive splash, but I do appreciate that Lieber has given the saloon a more unique architecture than the stereotypical bar-room set-front any western viewer has seen a zillion times. I do like this fifth page, the one from which I extracted the clearest evidence of the original destination for these pages: .  Murdock's big, craggy face makes for a memorable visual in this supporting actor. So many artists of the time wouldn't bother to make their characters visually distinctive beyond hairstyle and costume, but Lieber, added nicely by Colletta, gives us a Murdock who looks unmistakably distinct, rich with character and experience. He's reminding me very much of some prominent actor I can't quite place. The art is, as I've mentioned before, very Kirbyesque, but the close-up in panel 2 reminds me a lot of the work of Frank Robbins. The 9th story page provides a little dynamic action, with a montage of Colt and Rawhide trading fists:  Finally, here's a page from the story's climax, where Murdock realizes he needs to free the two Kids. At this point, he's only doing it because the gang has poached their quarry, but he'll rethink things after the gang threatens his grandson on the following page:  |
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Post by MWGallaher on Nov 13, 2020 8:12:10 GMT -5
Back to an Early Question:
Was Rawhide Kid going to star in every issue? We now have three pieces of evidence that Rawhide Kid was indeed the “Spider-Man” of Western Team-Up. The final issue of Reno Jones, the Gunhawk promised that Rawhide would be Reno’s partner in a future issue, which would most likely have been an early issue had the series been granted an extended run, maybe issue 3, while readers still remembered Reno’s cancelled series. The first two issues would definitely feature Rawhide as one of the partners. The third piece of evidence by which we can infer that Rawhide would be carrying the book is the cover design itself. Compare these two covers:   Notice that on the Marvel Team-Up cover, Iron Man’s logo is his standard version from the early 1970’s, but the Spider-Man logo is unique to MTU. Rawhide’s logo on WTU is likewise not the one you’d find on the covers of his own book, but one created especially for this new series. Both logos are designed with an upward semi-circular arc that easily accommodates almost any guest star’s logo below it. Crafting new logos costs money; if Marvel were planning on a completely shifting parade of headliners, they’d likely have just done their best to work in the logos already trademarked. Instead, they’ve crafted one new one that allows for satisfactory visual appeal no matter who the guest star will be, just like they did with Spider-Man. The straightforward logos of Two-Gun Kid, Outlaw Kid, Kid Colt Outlaw, Ringo Kid, or the more interesting logos of Red Wolf, Gunhawk, Wyatt Earp, and Tex Dawson, Gun-Slinger would all have slotted neatly into the space left below the curved “Rawhide Kid”. Rawhide is also, conveniently, a peripatetic hero. This wasn’t a rare characteristic among their western heroes. Kid Colt Outlaw and Outlaw Kid could have as easily shown up in whatever western locale the story called for (unlike Two-Gun Kid, whose secret identity tied him down more), but Rawhide was the more popular character of all of Marvel’s cowboys, generating many more non-reprint stories at the time. It makes sense to follow the model of the successful MTU and to rely on the stronger sales draw of Rawhide.
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