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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 5, 2014 12:06:39 GMT -5
Watch "Detour."
I call it ultra noir.
And try to get a murky copy. I got used to the messy "public domain" versions and it never has the same impact if you see one of the nice pristine restored versions that have popped up in the last ten years.
Also: "In a Lonely Place."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2014 12:12:54 GMT -5
Noir-when the hand of fate gives the character the middle finger no matter what they try to do, just before it reaches out slaps them silly and strangles the life out of them. -M You just described Roman tragedy  Not to mention real life. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 5, 2014 12:13:07 GMT -5
- suspense - twists -"shadowy" - hard men - dames (in hats) - more twists - there are no "winners" I like this a lot. Two concerns, though: 1. The "no winners" bit eliminates most of Hitchcock. 2. Should crime be a pre-requisite? One of my favorite films, "Witness for the Prosecution" meets most of these requirements, but it's a courtroom drama. I still think we were on to something here, and I'd love to fine tune it to the point that it becomes an easy reference for me and for anyone else who might be struggling with what is and what isn't Noir. |
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Post by MDG on Nov 5, 2014 12:46:33 GMT -5
What noir is and isn't is a debate--especially since, in the classic period--nobody set out to make a film noir; the term was retroactively applied by French critics.
In a dvd commentary by James Ellroy and Eddie Mueller (I think for Crime Wave), they boil it down to "you can't win," even though a lot of classic noirs have a "hollywood ending"--including Crime Wave. That is, after being pulled down, the protagonist (or couple)emerge looking toward a brighter future.
Part of the definition problem is that it refers to a visual style as much as setting, character, or plot.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 5, 2014 13:50:31 GMT -5
Just watched The 39 Steps and decided it probably isn't Noir.
On the other hand, I'm starting to wonder if The Godfather is.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2014 14:06:45 GMT -5
I just watched Rope by Hitchcock the other evening, though I don't know if that would be a noir example.
As far as neo-noir goes, I really like Chinatown and Pulp Fiction, though Chinatown is a more clear-cut example of neo-noir.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 5, 2014 14:08:55 GMT -5
I really do need to see Chinatown.
Is Taxi Driver neo-noir? It always seems to get mentioned in the same sentence as Chinatown, and I've yet to see it either.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 5, 2014 14:45:19 GMT -5
You could probably make a good noir film out of just about any 20-minute segment of "The Godfather."
But "The Godfather" isn't noir unless you're trying to expand the term so much that it becomes useless.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 5, 2014 14:52:32 GMT -5
"Rope" isn't film noir.
Hitchcock made a few films that might be called noir. SPOILER WARNING!! Notably "Shadow of a Doubt," because of Teresa Wright's dilemma. She's still alive and the serial killer has been stopped. But he was her beloved uncle.
Also, "Suspicion." SPOILER WARNING!! Joan Fontaine is still alive and Cary Grant isn't trying to kill her. But she's still married to (and hopelessly in love with) a manipulative, lying, shiftless cad.
I find it hard to think of North by Northwest as film noir. Maybe if Eva Marie Saint was more like Brigid O'Shaugnessy or Carmen Sternwood. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 5, 2014 15:09:07 GMT -5
You could probably make a good noir film out of just about any 20-minute segment of "The Godfather." But "The Godfather" isn't noir unless you're trying to expand the term so much that it becomes useless. Help me out here by telling me why. I'm still grasping for a concept of what noir is and is not. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 5, 2014 15:17:07 GMT -5
"The Godfather" is far too epic. Noir is more the realm of grubby little people caught up in forces they have no control over and that they barely understand.
A character like The Godfather could be a character in film noir but he can't be the main character. He has too much power.
And there's also the issue of "visual style." I haven't seen "The Godfather" for a while, but I don't think it's known for nourish "visual style."
Taxi Driver might be neo-noir. But Chinatown is definitely neo-noir.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 5, 2014 15:18:09 GMT -5
But that's just my opinion. Part of the film noir experience is coping with its nebulous definition.
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Post by MDG on Nov 5, 2014 15:22:59 GMT -5
You could probably make a good noir film out of just about any 20-minute segment of "The Godfather." But "The Godfather" isn't noir unless you're trying to expand the term so much that it becomes useless. Help me out here by telling me why. I'm still grasping for a concept of what noir is and is not. You should probably watch a couple inarguable noirs to make things more concrete. I'd recommend Double Indemnity and In a Lonely Place. At a lower price point, Detour and Gun Crazy. Other favorites: Road House 99 River Street Cry Danger Criss Cross Killer Bait (aka Too Late for Tears) Stranger on the Third Floor Thie thing about all these is that (with the exception of Cry Danger), they're not about people going out looking for trouble--trouble finds them. That's why movies about police or private eyes--where trouble is there business--aren't necessarily noirs. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 5, 2014 15:29:46 GMT -5
Help me out here by telling me why. I'm still grasping for a concept of what noir is and is not. You should probably watch a couple inarguable noirs to make things more concrete. I'd recommend Double Indemnity and In a Lonely Place. At a lower price point, Detour and Gun Crazy. Other favorites: Road House 99 River Street Cry Danger Criss Cross Killer Bait (aka Too Late for Tears) Stranger on the Third Floor Thie thing about all these is that (with the exception of Cry Danger), they're not about people going out looking for trouble--trouble finds them. That's why movies about police or private eyes--where trouble is there business--aren't necessarily noirs. Double Indemnity is on Netflix. I'll check it out tonight or tomorrow. Thanks. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2014 15:39:27 GMT -5
- suspense - twists -"shadowy" - hard men - dames (in hats) - more twists - there are no "winners" I like this a lot. Two concerns, though: 1. The "no winners" bit eliminates most of Hitchcock. 2. Should crime be a pre-requisite? One of my favorite films, "Witness for the Prosecution" meets most of these requirements, but it's a courtroom drama. Yeah, I don't really consider any Hitchcock (that I've seen) noir despite definite elements. And I can't think of noir that doesn't involve crime off the top of my head, but I'd say it's not a requirement. |
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