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Post by foxley on Mar 11, 2021 7:08:20 GMT -5
Let me preface this by saying that I do not intend this as an attack on the US or Americans. Rather it is a genuine inquiry about an aspect of American culture that completely baffles me.
I have just received a temporary ban from another comics related site for the 'crime' of posting a Dave Stevens Cheval Noir cover. And I find myself once again pondering what it is about the American national psyche that makes acknowledging that women possess nipples a heinous crime that will irrevocably corrupt the minds of the young and institute a moral decay that will plunge the country into anarchy, but regards someone shooting up a school as a sad but necessary part of the price of freedom?
I just needed to get this of my chest, but if any Americans can shed any light on this, I would be extremely interested.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,958 
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Post by Crimebuster on Mar 11, 2021 9:24:29 GMT -5
Religion.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Mar 11, 2021 9:44:14 GMT -5
I can't really say where in history that is started. But it's not just in nudity. I heard NIN's Closer on the radio a few days ago and the only word they censored was *uck. As if every single other word in that song doesn't convey what he's talking about. But thank the lord someone was thinking of the children and censored that one word, thereby masking all the other potentially inappropriate words said there in.
In other words, I have no idea why we are like that lol
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 11, 2021 10:14:08 GMT -5
It's an outgrowth of Puritan prudery exacerbated by recurrent Great Awakening religious revivalism. America has never quite managed to grow up as a society.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 11, 2021 10:28:21 GMT -5
I can't really say where in history that is started. But it's not just in nudity. I heard NIN's Closer on the radio a few days ago and the only word they censored was *uck. As if every single other word in that song doesn't convey what he's talking about. But thank the lord someone was thinking of the children and censored that one word, thereby masking all the other potentially inappropriate words said there in. Last time I heard it, even that was barely censored. It sounded like ffffck.
I've never understood the nudity taboo either. It's literally just our bodies. Like it's so basic I find it hard to put into words.
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Post by Rob Allen on Mar 11, 2021 12:13:15 GMT -5
I noticed that you were banned and wondered what that could be about.
I don't know quite how we Americans got this way or why it's so hard to change it.
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Post by MDG on Mar 11, 2021 12:56:02 GMT -5
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Post by EdoBosnar on Mar 11, 2021 13:28:20 GMT -5
(...) I don't know quite how we Americans got this way or why it's so hard to change it. This. Slam mentioned the Puritanism that's been an inextricable component of American culture since before the founding of the country, but I don't think that explains it entirely - particularly given its inconsistency (by that I mean the fact that so many aspects of our popular culture, esp. advertising/marketing, make abundant use of sexual titillation). And I find its dogged persistence inexplicable. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Mar 11, 2021 14:05:19 GMT -5
I can attest personally that, as Crimebuster, pointed out, religion does play a part in the prudish way that Americans look at sexuality. I had a heavily censored upbringing. (It's why comics were only something I could buy after reaching "adulthood". I think I started around 18.) But as EdoBosnar also said, sexual titillation is everywhere. And that's not to even mention the sexualization of literally everything on the internet. The passive aggressiveness of all things sexy seems to be more important than actuality of it.
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Post by Duragizer on Mar 11, 2021 14:41:45 GMT -5
The irony of conservative Christian antipathy towards nudity is never lost on me. Adam & Eve were nudists until sin made them ashamed of their bodies. As prone to wooden literalism as they are, one would think the Bible Belt would be embracing nudism with gusto to "get back to the garden".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 14:52:44 GMT -5
Meanwhile I posted the cover to Crime Suspenstories #22 in the same thread, the infamous decapitated head cover, and no one batted an eye.  It's not the prudery that bothers me as much as the cognitive dissonance between nudity and violence that exists in American culture. We need to protect children from the uncovered nude body but exposing them to horrific violence is perfectly acceptable. -M |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Mar 11, 2021 16:05:41 GMT -5
Meanwhile I posted the cover to Crime Suspenstories #22 in the same thread, the infamous decapitated head cover, and no one batted an eye. It's not the prudery that bothers me as much as the cognitive dissonance between nudity and violence that exists in American culture. We need to protect children from the uncovered nude body but exposing them to horrific violence is perfectly acceptable. -M That sums it up pretty well. Have you ever heard George Carlin's "7 Words You Can't Say On TV"? There is a section on the F-bomb, substituting it in movie lines for the word "kill". Funny, but it brings home the point about violence = ok, sex = bad. Like they said in WandaVision, "For the children". |
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 11, 2021 18:04:16 GMT -5
Meanwhile I posted the cover to Crime Suspenstories #22 in the same thread, the infamous decapitated head cover, and no one batted an eye. It's not the prudery that bothers me as much as the cognitive dissonance between nudity and violence that exists in American culture. We need to protect children from the uncovered nude body but exposing them to horrific violence is perfectly acceptable. -M That cover may have been accepted because historically & psychologically speaking, the fight over comic book violence was fought and sort of won after the fall of EC. So, that's settled into the subconscious of many. Further, with the rise of Warren in the 60s, Heavy Metal in the 70s and superhero comics filtering in extreme violence here and there, violence was more accepted as a necessary function of the story, as opposed to outright exploitation. People are more willing to accept certain subjects if it serves what they perceive as a purpose. |
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Post by foxley on Mar 12, 2021 6:52:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the insights everyone. It is interesting to see how situation appears to those on the inside as opposed to those of us on the outside.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 12, 2021 23:24:34 GMT -5
Well, in the US, movies are censored for sex, but, in Europe and other parts of the world, they are censored or restricted because of violence.
Puritanical origins are a part; but, the other colonial theologies also tended to a conservative base: Scottish Presbyterian, Catholic, Quaker, etc. You also have this backward view of our own history. In US lore, the Pilgrims came to America to practice their religion freely. Thing was, the Puritans were just as free to practice their religion in England, but were not so free to oppress alternative religious viewpoints and left to create settlements where they could (and did).
On top of that, you have anti-immigrant sentiments that have followed each generation of immigrants. Outside views and practices were seen as brutish, debased and uncivilized and the peoples demonized, until they were assimilated and the next wave came under the attack. Cultural attacks were common, especially cultures that were more at home with sex or artistic expression. A generation before comic books were attacked, newspaper strips had come under similar fire, from the same kinds of groups. However, the newspapers were more powerful than the comic book publishers and (mostly) didn't cave to pressure)
Comics are even worse, as they have traditionally been seen as children's reading and, for much of their lifespan, illiterate children's reading. No matter how far we progress with the idea that adults can read comics, we run into the mindset that anything adult rocks the boat for the middle ground and gets the torches and pitchforks out for the industry.
If you are talking about the Stevens cover for Cheval Noir, the bondage element may be a bigger factor than the nipples, though it is probably more the combination of bondage and fetish imagery (redundant, I know) and partial nudity. Comics have been heavily fetishized since the beginning, since overt sexuality was a no-no; but, nudity is okay and mild fetish is okay, but both will cause fire to rise from the pages. I think Howard Chaykin nailed it in American Flagg, where sexual imagery is used to sell everything and sex is very fetishized, as that seems to be the way the media has gone since the 70s.
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