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Post by Cei-U! on Apr 5, 2021 20:51:01 GMT -5
I'm a graduate of Tacoma's Woodrow Wilson High School, which has just been renamed Dolores Silas High School for the first black woman to serve on the Tacoma School Board. A lot of my classmates are honked off about this but I'm fine with it, as I despise Wilson for his willingness to wipe his behind with the Constitution during World War I as well as his racism.
Curiously, every single school I attended from nursery school to 12th grade has been either renamed or torn down and replaced with a differently named successor. D'you suppose it's me?
Cei-U!
I summon the bad juju!
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Post by Duragizer on Apr 6, 2021 1:16:05 GMT -5
I have no issues separating the artist and their art in general. I also don't have an issue with is separating the artist and my money. For example, there's no way on Earth that Orson Scott Card would ever get a dime from me. I'm fine with reading his work for free but I'd never put money in his pocket. See also Mel Gibson. I will say that a persons politics tend to color the way I see them and their art. It absolutely happened with Charlie Daniels. Luckily I find that I rarely like the art made by people with whom I don't agree politically. About the same for me. It helps that I buy most of my media second-hand. |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Apr 6, 2021 5:10:29 GMT -5
It's strange - I was going to come on and say that this is something I can't do. I can't even think about Roman Polanski and not fall through a rabbit hole of hatred for the man and his supporters. (...) Not to go off on a tangent, but the way people, mainly from the motion picture scene, and not just in the US, jump to Polanski's defense *really* gets under my skin. Back in 2009, when he was arrested in Switzerland and it looked for a while like he might be extradited to the US, a Croatian Television news talk show covered the case and had several local film directors/actors/producers in the studio. The whole tone of the show was that Polanski was the victim of persecution, and one of guests, a director I think, even said that while he's personally disgusted that Polanski 'had sex' with a minor, the whole case was based on out-of-control American prudery - I remember I was screaming at the TV ("It wasn't sex! He drugged and raped a 13 year-old!"). Oh, geez. Just thinking about it now has me gnashing my teeth... |
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Post by lisacoy on May 17, 2021 3:06:03 GMT -5
Pablo Neruda's alleged history of sexual abuse and exoticizing racism. However, his poetry contains pathos
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Post by thwhtguardian on May 21, 2021 19:16:59 GMT -5
Pablo Neruda's alleged history of sexual abuse and exoticizing racism. However, his poetry contains pathos Yeah, he's by far one of my favorite poets and his political incites are interesting to read but as a person he was definitely flawed, though I think it helps me to separate that from my enjoyment of his writing that even he was honest about his flaws. He didn't cover up the fact that he committed rape, and ended the episode in his memoir that she was right to despise him so it would seem he was aware it was wrong. That certainly doesn't excuse the rape in any way, but for me it definitely makes it easier to read his work. |
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Post by spoon on May 30, 2021 22:30:53 GMT -5
Like some others upthread, money is the main consideration to me. I generally find it easiest to separate art and the misdeeds of the artist if that person is dead or I'm enjoying an old piece of work that they may not even derive current income from. The one boycott based on an artist that I've most consistently maintained is a boycott of Tom Cruise movies based on his role in Scientology. I haven't seen a post-2002 Tom Cruise movie in a theater. I think the only one I've rented is Tropic Thunder, and I don't think I realized he was in it when I rented it. My issue isn't just that Cruise will profit from my business, but that he'll use it to facilitate harm. He's a major funder of Scientology, so the more money Cruise makes, the greater Scientology's ability to harm people.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 17:26:59 GMT -5
Roc Upchurch was an excellent artist for Rat Queens, an Image series which started in 2014. But he was arrested, and lost the gig, after beating up his wife.
I had second thoughts about keeping the book but I did.
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Post by MDG on Jun 3, 2021 7:39:13 GMT -5
What about supporting people who were personally rude at a show? A major artist just put out a major book, but I'm not inclined to buy it because he acted like a real dick to me at a con on the mid-80s. (And it wasn't me--the artist sitting next to him called hm out on it.)
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Post by tonebone on Jun 3, 2021 7:57:42 GMT -5
Even when artists don't have any dark secret or when they didn't commit any truly reprehensible act, I have a hard time appreciating their work when I learn that they treated people like dirt for no good reason. Several of my favourite artists were reported as acting like entitled prima donnas, which definitely damaged my ability to fully enjoy their work. On the other hand, I always enjoy hearing about how Such and such is a lovely human being on top of being a fantastic creator! Definitely true that firsthand impressions have more impact. I was a die-hard Trekker for most of my life. In 2005, I began going to conventions specifically to meet the actors whose roles had meant so much to me. I had four genuinely NICE experiences, and then, in 2010, I met Brent Spiner (Data, Star Trek the Next Generation). I had my toddler with me, who had recently begun watching hand-picked episodes with me, though she understood little of it. I'd spent the day building up the idea that we were going to actually meet Data, and she was thrilled. When she met Spiner, she immediately asked where spot (Data's cat) was. He looked uncomfortable and annoyed, and then explained to her brusquely that none of that was real; that was someone else's cat. She was so...confused by his annoyance, and I was furious. I've heard many reports from other fans about how nice Spiner was when they met him. Could be he's just uncomfortable around kids, or that it was a particularly bad day, but it really ruined Trek for me, as well as the desire to ever meet another celebrity. The illusion was shattered, and that bad memory is now always there whenever I turn Trek on. I still watch sometimes, but much of the enjoyment is gone, and that was by no means a purposeful decision. Yeah, that would have ruined it for me, too. Not understanding or honoring the magical whimsy of childhood beliefs is a deal-breaker for me. I always hold my breath when meeting comics "legends" at cons. Especially the ones who seem curt and bristly in interviews. I met Howard Chaykin and was really expecting to be disappointed in the interaction, but he turned out to be a warm, friendly, delightful guy. Really funny, and self-depricating. My teen daughter was with me and I was so relieved he was a great guy, and I hadn't been fawning over a creep. And I agree with you about it not being a purposeful decision when you turn away from those who have "let you down". Bill Cosby was a hero of mine, growing up, and my parents had all of his comedy albums. Now, I'm somewhere between "I have no interest" and "he sickens me". And just my natural reaction, nothing conscious. |
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Post by tonebone on Jun 3, 2021 8:13:13 GMT -5
It's strange - I was going to come on and say that this is something I can't do. I can't even think about Roman Polanski and not fall through a rabbit hole of hatred for the man and his supporters. (...) Not to go off on a tangent, but the way people, mainly from the motion picture scene, and not just in the US, jump to Polanski's defense *really* gets under my skin. Back in 2009, when he was arrested in Switzerland and it looked for a while like he might be extradited to the US, a Croatian Television news talk show covered the case and had several local film directors/actors/producers in the studio. The whole tone of the show was that Polanski was the victim of persecution, and one of guests, a director I think, even said that while he's personally disgusted that Polanski 'had sex' with a minor, the whole case was based on out-of-control American prudery - I remember I was screaming at the TV ("It wasn't sex! He drugged and raped a 13 year-old!"). Oh, geez. Just thinking about it now has me gnashing my teeth... What really gets me is the Hollywood SELECTIVE OUTRAGE. Roman Polanski (a rapist) get a pass and active support from some because he is a good director. Lovecraft (a virulent racist) gets a pass because his stories and ideas are still ripe for development. Yet, if an actor or writer who is maybe not a "Hollywood darling" steps out of line with a misguided tweet or statement, they are shamed and cancelled out of their profession. 99% of the time, at least with modern instances, the determining factor is which side of the political aisle the person is on. It's a shame that the depth and breadth of the human experience is not sufficient to combat the fact that "it's politics, all the way down" (to paraphrase Terry Pratchett). |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 3, 2021 8:13:55 GMT -5
What about supporting people who were personally rude at a show? A major artist just put out a major book, but I'm not inclined to buy it because he acted like a real dick to me at a con on the mid-80s. (And it wasn't me--the artist sitting next to him called hm out on it.) If it's the same one I'm thinking about, his prima donna behaviour soured me to his (admittedly outstanding) work a long time ago. Our personal heroes should act heroically, dammit! |
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Post by tonebone on Jun 3, 2021 8:33:19 GMT -5
Personally, I have a pretty open policy of what I can still enjoy, regardless of the creator. If I pushed aside everything made by people I disagree with or people who had different values than me, I would have nothing to enjoy.
Random thoughts:
I actually enjoy reading CEREBUS, regardless of Sim's views on women, his shady past, etc. I am able to put that aside and enjoy the work... don't know why, I just am.
Conversely, if I hear anything about Bill Cosby, I am immediately somewhere between disinterested and sickened.
I have no real love for Lovecraft, but harbor no ill will to anyone who does. His views were extremely racist, but he was not alone in that, in his lifetime, by any means.
I am a conflicted by Herge, Eisner, and others whose early 20th century depictions of blacks and asians are "problematic". I can still enjoy the works, but it bothers me that it was an acceptable thing to do in their day. I don't want them changed or unavailable, however. I am sickened by the removal of Dr. Seuss books based on caricatures that were done in the 40's, and still present in pop culture well into the 90's. I would rather have a disclaimer or statement of "cultural sensitivity" added to the books, but having them unavailable at all is unacceptable.
Likewise I find it unacceptable to subtly change an artist or writer's work to be "in line" with modern values. Look on the web for Richard Scarry's Busytown books and see how they have been changed, with good intentions, but without the late author's input.
My father in law is black, and he delighted in reading to his white grandkids an old copy of "Little Black Sambo". HE was not offended by it, so how can I be?
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ALSO, I would like to say that in any other online community, this would have already devolved into a "us vs. them" political argument and been shut down by the mods, burned with gasoline, and nuked from space. The civility and openness to discuss things like rational adults is inspiring.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 3, 2021 8:39:43 GMT -5
Wow, reality checking a toddler is incredibly boorish. If you aren't willing to entertain a child's fantasy for just a moment, you should rethink making public appearances. I try to be fair and consider the number of public appearances he makes and the number of fans he interacts with at each appearance. Seems like a mathematical certainty you're going to make the wrong impression on someone with all those exchanges. I don't logically fault him for this, but the parent in me will never stop being pissed at how callously he stripped away my daughter's fantasy and belief that someone she loved would necessarily be kind to her in return. She's thirteen now. She knows the story, but I doubt she even thinks about it. And I'm still mad anyway. No excuse. He was a d**k to a baby. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 3, 2021 8:41:20 GMT -5
What about supporting people who were personally rude at a show? A major artist just put out a major book, but I'm not inclined to buy it because he acted like a real dick to me at a con on the mid-80s. (And it wasn't me--the artist sitting next to him called hm out on it.) Name names. |
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Post by brutalis on Jun 3, 2021 9:08:29 GMT -5
I can mostly give comic book writers and artists a "get out of jail free card" for their interactions with fans at con's. It seems to me that fandom interaction is a difficult concept. Most comic book creating is done in a vacuum as the creators work at home alone (for the most part) with few personal face to face discussions. Fans in turn can be damnably irritating and demanding and overwhelming in person with little regards to civility or politeness.
I can recognize most creators are at a con not for their vacation or a day out but for making some extra money. Like working in retail (which I have done) or dealing with the public on a personal level (again done in a hospital) it all depends upon how both sides are behaving or acting on any given moment.
So "rude" I can forgive unless said "star" is consistently and proudly wearing his ass hat in public.
Examples from my own con interactions. Met Neal Adam's & watched at his booth. If you were spending enormous amounts at his table he devotes his full attention and is amiable, but if just passing through for an autograph or 1 print spending very little he is very abrupt moving on to the next lucrative sale. Met Denys Cowan, very open, approachable and personal at his discussion panel but at his table was never off of his cellphone and never spoke to or acknowledged a fan when at his table. Both of these might be considered rude or inconsiderate in dealing with the public but neither made me consider them being jerks, ruining my appreciation of their artistic contributions.
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