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Post by tingramretro on Aug 25, 2021 7:26:31 GMT -5
Marvel have the rights to Conan back, and have had since 2019.
Ah, yes. I see they are using Conan - in the Avengers, of all places! What about Kull or Solomon Kane - has Marvel done anything with them since acquiring the rights to REH's characters again? Both Kull and Kane appeared in an era spanning Conan limited series called Serpent War in 2019. Conan also has his own title, set in his customary time period, in addition to appearing in Savage Avengers. Actually, the Avengers thing is probably less jarring for longtime Marvel UK fans, as for quite some time in the seventies, Conan was the regular backup feature in Avengers Weekly! |
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Post by berkley on Aug 26, 2021 21:11:47 GMT -5
Ah, yes. I see they are using Conan - in the Avengers, of all places! What about Kull or Solomon Kane - has Marvel done anything with them since acquiring the rights to REH's characters again? Both Kull and Kane appeared in an era spanning Conan limited series called Serpent War in 2019. Conan also has his own title, set in his customary time period, in addition to appearing in Savage Avengers. Actually, the Avengers thing is probably less jarring for longtime Marvel UK fans, as for quite some time in the seventies, Conan was the regular backup feature in Avengers Weekly! Thanks, I'll have a look online for the Serpent War, just out of curiosity. Still, disappointing, though not surprising, that they aren't doing more with the other REH characters. |
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 6, 2021 5:10:25 GMT -5
Both Kull and Kane appeared in an era spanning Conan limited series called Serpent War in 2019. Conan also has his own title, set in his customary time period, in addition to appearing in Savage Avengers. Actually, the Avengers thing is probably less jarring for longtime Marvel UK fans, as for quite some time in the seventies, Conan was the regular backup feature in Avengers Weekly! Thanks, I'll have a look online for the Serpent War, just out of curiosity. Still, disappointing, though not surprising, that they aren't doing more with the other REH characters. I think the other REH characters are largely forgotten these days so they're probably mostly unsaleable from Marvel's POV. The only exception being Red Sonja (who doesn't really resemble REH's character anyway), and these days Dynamite have a firm hold on that licensed property. |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Sept 8, 2021 11:19:45 GMT -5
I think the other REH characters are largely forgotten these days so they're probably mostly unsaleable from Marvel's POV. The only exception being Red Sonja (who doesn't really resemble REH's character anyway), and these days Dynamite have a firm hold on that licensed property.
I still don't understand why Marvel doesn't own their version of Red Sonya.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 8, 2021 11:33:14 GMT -5
I think the other REH characters are largely forgotten these days so they're probably mostly unsaleable from Marvel's POV. The only exception being Red Sonja (who doesn't really resemble REH's character anyway), and these days Dynamite have a firm hold on that licensed property.
I still don't understand why Marvel doesn't own their version of Red Sonya.
Because they never owned it. The character was a derivative work that was a part of the original license with the Howard estate. However, when the Red Sonja movie came out the Howard estate spun her off into her own licensing company, Red Sonja, LLC. So she's not been a part of the Conan licenses since 1985. |
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Post by berkley on Sept 9, 2021 1:47:12 GMT -5
Thanks, I'll have a look online for the Serpent War, just out of curiosity. Still, disappointing, though not surprising, that they aren't doing more with the other REH characters. I think the other REH characters are largely forgotten these days so they're probably mostly unsaleable from Marvel's POV. The only exception being Red Sonja (who doesn't really resemble REH's character anyway), and these days Dynamite have a firm hold on that licensed property.
Sure, but why look at everything from the business POV? Can't we talk about what we as readers might like to see?
When Marvel started the Conan comics in the early 70s, was that a guaranteed profit-maker? Yes, I know there had been the paperback revival, but comics fans, mostly into superheroes, didn't necessarily know about that. And they went ahead and started a Kull series too - which, admittedly, didnt last long - but the point is, they did it!
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Post by brutalis on Sept 9, 2021 10:44:11 GMT -5
I think the other REH characters are largely forgotten these days so they're probably mostly unsaleable from Marvel's POV. The only exception being Red Sonja (who doesn't really resemble REH's character anyway), and these days Dynamite have a firm hold on that licensed property.
Sure, but why look at everything from the business POV? Can't we talk about what we as readers might like to see?
When Marvel started the Conan comics in the early 70s, was that a guaranteed profit-maker? Yes, I know there had been the paperback revival, but comics fans, mostly into superheroes, didn't necessarily know about that. And they went ahead and started a Kull series too - which, admittedly, didnt last long - but the point is, they did it!
Most publishers are out of touch these days as to what "fans" want in comics. And what should a publisher base their idea of what fans want? The loyal old and small reader base, the "collector" buying up multiple covers/issues/cash grabs? The next gen of new readers coming up? Did the fans truly ask for Conan being made a part of the MU? That only benefits Marvel as if/when they lose the REH license then nobody can reprint the Marvel Conan unless they negotiate with Marvel to pay for the use of MU heroes. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2021 12:33:48 GMT -5
Sure, but why look at everything from the business POV? Can't we talk about what we as readers might like to see?
When Marvel started the Conan comics in the early 70s, was that a guaranteed profit-maker? Yes, I know there had been the paperback revival, but comics fans, mostly into superheroes, didn't necessarily know about that. And they went ahead and started a Kull series too - which, admittedly, didnt last long - but the point is, they did it!
Most publishers are out of touch these days as to what "fans" want in comics. And what should a publisher base their idea of what fans want? The loyal old and small reader base, the "collector" buying up multiple covers/issues/cash grabs? The next gen of new readers coming up? Did the fans truly ask for Conan being made a part of the MU? That only benefits Marvel as if/when they lose the REH license then nobody can reprint the Marvel Conan unless they negotiate with Marvel to pay for the use of MU heroes. By the same token, most "fans" are out of touch with what will resonate and sell to the mass market, which is where the profits lie and what makes producing the products economically viable for companies and creators. -M |
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 12, 2021 6:39:07 GMT -5
I think the other REH characters are largely forgotten these days so they're probably mostly unsaleable from Marvel's POV. The only exception being Red Sonja (who doesn't really resemble REH's character anyway), and these days Dynamite have a firm hold on that licensed property.
Sure, but why look at everything from the business POV? Can't we talk about what we as readers might like to see?
We can, but it's largely pointless if it could never happen because of legal/business considerations. I could bemoan the fact that Marvel aren't publishing a Rom series, but the fact is, they don't own Rom, so they can't. |
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 12, 2021 6:43:24 GMT -5
Sure, but why look at everything from the business POV? Can't we talk about what we as readers might like to see?
When Marvel started the Conan comics in the early 70s, was that a guaranteed profit-maker? Yes, I know there had been the paperback revival, but comics fans, mostly into superheroes, didn't necessarily know about that. And they went ahead and started a Kull series too - which, admittedly, didnt last long - but the point is, they did it!
Most publishers are out of touch these days as to what "fans" want in comics. And what should a publisher base their idea of what fans want? The loyal old and small reader base, the "collector" buying up multiple covers/issues/cash grabs? The next gen of new readers coming up? I'm not sure they are out of touch. It's more that, as you say, different fans want different things. Putting out comics that will appeal to people who've been reading for forty years is unlikely to bring in new readers. |
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 12, 2021 6:44:51 GMT -5
Most publishers are out of touch these days as to what "fans" want in comics. And what should a publisher base their idea of what fans want? The loyal old and small reader base, the "collector" buying up multiple covers/issues/cash grabs? The next gen of new readers coming up? Did the fans truly ask for Conan being made a part of the MU? That only benefits Marvel as if/when they lose the REH license then nobody can reprint the Marvel Conan unless they negotiate with Marvel to pay for the use of MU heroes. By the same token, most "fans" are out of touch with what will resonate and sell to the mass market, which is where the profits lie and what makes producing the products economically viable for companies and creators. -M Absolutely right! That is what the publishers exist to do, after all. |
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Post by berkley on Sept 12, 2021 16:35:42 GMT -5
Sure, but why look at everything from the business POV? Can't we talk about what we as readers might like to see?
We can, but it's largely pointless if it could never happen because of legal/business considerations. I could bemoan the fact that Marvel aren't publishing a Rom series, but the fact is, they don't own Rom, so they can't.
But in this case it isn't something that couldn't happen, since Marvel does own the rights. So we're discussing a decision Marvel has made not to use certain characters because they think it doesn't make business sense. I say that is short-sighted thinking even from a business perspective, though why every discussion has to be taken from a business perspective I'll never understand. Note, this is not the same as taking the business perspective into account when discussing what is likely to happen, which obviously one has to do if one is to weigh the probabilities accurately.
But this isn't the Financial Post or the Wall Street Journal: it's ridiculous to think that no one should ever talk about anything but what business considerations render likely to happen. It's a comic book site where we talk about all kinds of things related to the medium - including of course the comic book industry, but not only that. Hell, we even talk about things that literally could never happen because the events took place in the past, e.g. "wouldn't it have been cool if Steve Englehart had stayed on the Avengers with George Perez instead of leaving after just one story-arc?"
Regarding the REH characters, I thnk it's smart for publishers to take some of their profits from more popular productions and big sellers and invest it in things that are less likely to turn a profit right now but at some point in the future might lead to something new and unexpected. It's like R & D: you put money into new ideas, 99% of which might lead nowhere, but if you don't commit some resources into these experiments you'll never grow.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 12, 2021 20:10:42 GMT -5
I think the other REH characters are largely forgotten these days so they're probably mostly unsaleable from Marvel's POV. The only exception being Red Sonja (who doesn't really resemble REH's character anyway), and these days Dynamite have a firm hold on that licensed property.
I still don't understand why Marvel doesn't own their version of Red Sonya.
The licensing deal meant that all of the work was owned by the license holder, meaning the Howard Estate, including stuff derived from it. Since the idea for Red Sonja came from a Howard story, with a Red Sonya, it wasn't something original they created, like Shang Chi (in relation to the Fu Manchu characters). Therefore, the estate controlled that material, just as Lucasfilm owned the Marvel Star wars comics material. That is why Dark Horse could reprint those Marvel stories. As said, red Sonja was split off into a separate holding company, for licensing purposes and Marvel seems to have only licensed Conan and whoever else has popped up. Maybe Marvel hasn't negotiated a deal, or hasn't completed one. Maybe their research indicated too small of a demand for the cost of licensing. When Marvel did Shang Chi, they licensed the Fu Manchu characters for the book, but they were not the original source for Shang Chi, as Fu only had a daughter, in the novels. So, Shang Chi and subsequent characters, like Black Jack Tarr, Clive Reston, Leiko Wu, Shen Kui and Brynoki were all original characters and owned by Marvel, as they were not derived from the licensed work. Similarly, Bug, of the Micronauts, was original enough that Marvel was able to maintain him, even after losing the Micronauts license, even though he was originally identified with the figure Galactic Warrior (but the character design was nothing like the toy). US Copyright and Trademark law has variances from UK and European law and those variances play a factor in these kinds of deals. Also, different properties often had different licensing deals. In some cases, the original license holder owns the material created; in others, they control the rights, but not the material itself. |
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Post by brutalis on Sept 12, 2021 20:16:09 GMT -5
Pulp heroic has a loyal but small following that publishers COULD count on turning a profit from, but like ALL companies these days, it is the almighty big dollars that they want. Rather than court and build on a dedicated fan base the logic is NOBODY will buy these "old time concepts" without trying to make them attractive to the young and current crowd. I grew up with knowing these Pulp Characters were out there and I actively searched for them in comics, novels and movies, knowing they were different and unique from the modern.
Of course that was a different time when we young people were capable of having longer attention spans and accepted the difference in times, finding interest in that. Now it is a different time, most young people have shorter attention spans and smaller windows of acceptance in what they like. It is sad. In my office I work with 5 people all under 30 years old. NONE of them read books. None will watch a movie or TV show in black and white. All 5 live with their cell phone in their hand. They refuse to listen to older music styles. They have ZERO interest or desire for anything of the past.
How do you keep the past alive, let alone sell it to modern consumers if they won't even pick it up?
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 13, 2021 7:30:46 GMT -5
We can, but it's largely pointless if it could never happen because of legal/business considerations. I could bemoan the fact that Marvel aren't publishing a Rom series, but the fact is, they don't own Rom, so they can't.
But in this case it isn't something that couldn't happen, since Marvel does own the rights. So we're discussing a decision Marvel has made not to use certain characters because they think it doesn't make business sense. I say that is short-sighted thinking even from a business perspective, though why every discussion has to be taken from a business perspective I'll never understand. Note, this is not the same as taking the business perspective into account when discussing what is likely to happen, which obviously one has to do if one is to weigh the probabilities accurately.
But this isn't the Financial Post or the Wall Street Journal: it's ridiculous to think that no one should ever talk about anything but what business considerations render likely to happen. It's a comic book site where we talk about all kinds of things related to the medium - including of course the comic book industry, but not only that. Hell, we even talk about things that literally could never happen because the events took place in the past, e.g. "wouldn't it have been cool if Steve Englehart had stayed on the Avengers with George Perez instead of leaving after just one story-arc?"
Regarding the REH characters, I thnk it's smart for publishers to take some of their profits from more popular productions and big sellers and invest it in things that are less likely to turn a profit right now but at some point in the future might lead to something new and unexpected. It's like R & D: you put money into new ideas, 99% of which might lead nowhere, but if you don't commit some resources into these experiments you'll never grow.
I would say that discussions like this have to be taken from a business perspective because we are talking about comics publishers, which are a business. Why would they put money into publishing Kull or Solomon Kane when those characters never sold very well even forty-five years ago, when company was in a far better place to take those kinds of risks? I could see the point in Dynamite Entertainment trying a limited series with one of those characters, but not Marvel. |
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