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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2021 20:42:03 GMT -5
It isn't only the Avengers, I sort of lost my taste for Marvel in general around that time so that even the better stuff from the 80s and beyond doesn't appeal to me much.
Looking quickly at that Stern run, I see that the artist for the first 20 or 30 issues is Al Milgrom, whose work I don't especially care for. However, it looks like John Buscema and Tom Palmer take over somewhere in the #250s, and while their work from this period doesn't look the same as their 60s art, I still like it, so I might try to collect those issues one of these days, especially since they don't seem too pricey.
Check out the TPB for Under Siege. I read The Avengers a lot longer than some of the other longtime superhero comics I had been reading. Because of how good the Stern/Buscema/Palmer issues were. Under Siege is a highlight of the 1980s. And then it kind of went downhill almost immediately. Mostly because Marinna is not a good character. I'll disagree in that I loved Marinna in Alpha Flight. Hated what they did with her in Avengers. . and hated even more that Namor was in an Avengers book. He's a Defender, and an Invader. . not an Avenger. at least to me.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 18, 2021 21:38:48 GMT -5
Yeah, lots to avoid during the Harras years of Avengers. Stories and art which makes the brain cry and the eyes bleed. Never did like the idiotic put the team in leather jackets over their costumes. Such a dumb look. Also never liked Lightsaber wielding Black Knight. But Council of Kang along with the introduction of Nebula I liked. I can't win 'em all I guess. Oh yeah! The Council of Kangs was great! I love that storyline. I’m going to look up the issue numbers to help berkley.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 18, 2021 21:48:10 GMT -5
The Council of Kangs is 267 to 269.
Under Siege is 270 to 277 and then there’s the fate of Jarvis in 280.
And then Dr Druid becomes the leader of the Avengers. Looking at the covers online, I see that I read it for another year or so, and I actually liked some of it. But Dr Druid and Marinna just got to be too much for me. And I think Namor would have worked better if he hadn’t hung around as long as he did.
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Post by badwolf on Sept 19, 2021 14:49:54 GMT -5
Check out the TPB for Under Siege. I read The Avengers a lot longer than some of the other longtime superhero comics I had been reading. Because of how good the Stern/Buscema/Palmer issues were. Under Siege is a highlight of the 1980s. And then it kind of went downhill almost immediately. Mostly because Marinna is not a good character. I'll disagree in that I loved Marinna in Alpha Flight. Hated what they did with her in Avengers. . and hated even more that Namor was in an Avengers book. He's a Defender, and an Invader. . not an Avenger. at least to me. I liked Marrina so I hated what they did to her in Avengers. I really wanted her to overcome her Plodex nature for good. Buscema and Palmer drew her pretty well too (though her leviathan form didn't look right to me.)
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Post by profh0011 on Sept 19, 2021 21:38:35 GMT -5
I'l always remember how that awful scenario played out. Not the comic, but behind the scenes. Mark Gruenwald, who started out as such a decent writer, let his promotion to editor go to his head. He ORDERED Roger Stern to write a story HE wanted. Stern went home to figure it out, then came back on Monday and told him he could not figure out how to write Gruenwald's story without VIOLATING the integrity and personalities of every character involved. Gruenwald told him, "Fine, they I'll get somebody who CAN." Stern was FIRED off the book, and Walt Simonson was too happy to just take the money and do what he was told, since he wasn't planning to stick around afterwards.
And soon after, somebody must have gotten pissed, because Gruenwald was FIRED off the book only a few months after the mess he caused ended.
The parralel with what happened with Kevin Dooley, Gerard Jones and Ron Marz on GREEN LANTERN was always too close and uncanny. I forget how long Dooley lasted, but I know he wound up out of the biz some years later.
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Post by berkley on Sept 19, 2021 23:45:21 GMT -5
Stern went home to figure it out, then came back on Monday and told him he could not figure out how to write Gruenwald's story without VIOLATING the integrity and personalities of every character involved. I like to hear of a writer saying things like that. Too many writers see them (edit: the characters, I mean) as more or less blank slates on which they are free to write whatever comes into their heads - or whatever they need to fit the story they want to write, regardless of whether it makes any sense for the pre-existing characters involved.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 20, 2021 4:19:37 GMT -5
Stern went home to figure it out, then came back on Monday and told him he could not figure out how to write Gruenwald's story without VIOLATING the integrity and personalities of every character involved. I like to hear of a writer saying things like that. Too many writers see them as more or less blank slates on which they are free to write whatever comes into their heads - or whatever they need to fit the story they want to write, regardless of whether it makes any sense for the pre-existing characters involved. In this particular case, Captain Marvel ( Rambeau) was Sterns baby, there's no way he wanted to write her as incompetent or as cracking under pressure. I think that these characters are no longer scared cows, and that even Spider-man or Thor are subject to weird storylines. Marvel still operates under the theory of having the illusion of change. That's why whenever a writer leaves a book, they generally reset the status quo to the way they found it. Even after all the things that Bendis was vilified for, everything he did was undone when he left the Avengers.
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Post by commond on Sept 20, 2021 4:48:57 GMT -5
Stern was a great writer. Marvel started going downhill for me when they lost writers like Stern. The worst thing about the post-Stern Avengers was Reed and Sue Richards joining the team. It was only for a few issues but it felt wrong. I actually liked the Harras/Epting run at the time as it returned the book to relevance. I doubt I could stomach reading it again, but much like the DeFalco/Ryan Fantastic Four, it took a book that was a mess and tried to give it a new direction. It's ancient history now, I suppose.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 20, 2021 5:57:57 GMT -5
Stern was a great writer. Marvel started going downhill for me when they lost writers like Stern. The worst thing about the post-Stern Avengers was Reed and Sue Richards joining the team. It was only for a few issues but it felt wrong. I actually liked the Harras/Epting run at the time as it returned the book to relevance. I doubt I could stomach reading it again, but much like the DeFalco/Ryan Fantastic Four, it took a book that was a mess and tried to give it a new direction. It's ancient history now, I suppose. I keep telling myself that if I do a re-read of the Harris era Avengers , that I might enjoy it. Let's see.
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Post by badwolf on Sept 20, 2021 9:12:09 GMT -5
Stern was a great writer. Marvel started going downhill for me when they lost writers like Stern. The worst thing about the post-Stern Avengers was Reed and Sue Richards joining the team. It was only for a few issues but it felt wrong. I actually liked the Harras/Epting run at the time as it returned the book to relevance. I doubt I could stomach reading it again, but much like the DeFalco/Ryan Fantastic Four, it took a book that was a mess and tried to give it a new direction. It's ancient history now, I suppose. Rog has always been one of my top favorites. The last storyline I liked from that era was the "Heavy Metal" arc, which he kicked off but Ralph Macchio scripted for the most part.
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Post by String on Sept 20, 2021 12:49:29 GMT -5
Yeah, lots to avoid during the Harras years of Avengers. Stories and art which makes the brain cry and the eyes bleed. Never did like the idiotic put the team in leather jackets over their costumes. Such a dumb look. Also never liked Lightsaber wielding Black Knight. But Council of Kang along with the introduction of Nebula I liked. I can't win 'em all I guess. Could. Not. Disagree. More. First off, it's bomber jackets and it is an iconic look, it's representative of the 90s. It gave a unifying look to the overall team which was different. Second, Harras really elevated Dane Whitman into his new role as team leader after Cap quit, doubts and all. I also thought that Harras did well in handling the repercussions on the team over the killing of the Supreme Intelligence. And while the Ebony Blade is his signature weapon, Dane using a lightsaber as a replacement is no worser than his riding a metallic flying sled that (kinda) resembles a horse instead of a winged stallion. In fact, for years, I've heard nothing but horror stories about Harras' time on the book and yet after finally reading it (and yes, parts of his run has been collected in the Epic Collection books), I've found nothing could be further from the truth. It has quality stories wrapped around a broader plot arc, good characterization that held plenty of drama with equally good art all wrapped up in the zany over-the-top trappings of the 90s. Loved it.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 20, 2021 13:28:50 GMT -5
Yeah, lots to avoid during the Harras years of Avengers. Stories and art which makes the brain cry and the eyes bleed. Never did like the idiotic put the team in leather jackets over their costumes. Such a dumb look. Also never liked Lightsaber wielding Black Knight. But Council of Kang along with the introduction of Nebula I liked. I can't win 'em all I guess. Could. Not. Disagree. More. First off, it's bomber jackets and it is an iconic look, it's representative of the 90s. It gave a unifying look to the overall team which was different. I don't think that word means what you think it means.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2021 15:30:26 GMT -5
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Post by SJNeal on Sept 20, 2021 18:53:47 GMT -5
Yeah, lots to avoid during the Harras years of Avengers. Stories and art which makes the brain cry and the eyes bleed. Never did like the idiotic put the team in leather jackets over their costumes. Such a dumb look. Also never liked Lightsaber wielding Black Knight. But Council of Kang along with the introduction of Nebula I liked. I can't win 'em all I guess. Could. Not. Disagree. More. First off, it's bomber jackets and it is an iconic look, it's representative of the 90s. It gave a unifying look to the overall team which was different. Second, Harras really elevated Dane Whitman into his new role as team leader after Cap quit, doubts and all. I also thought that Harras did well in handling the repercussions on the team over the killing of the Supreme Intelligence. And while the Ebony Blade is his signature weapon, Dane using a lightsaber as a replacement is no worser than his riding a metallic flying sled that (kinda) resembles a horse instead of a winged stallion. In fact, for years, I've heard nothing but horror stories about Harras' time on the book and yet after finally reading it (and yes, parts of his run has been collected in the Epic Collection books), I've found nothing could be further from the truth. It has quality stories wrapped around a broader plot arc, good characterization that held plenty of drama with equally good art all wrapped up in the zany over-the-top trappings of the 90s. Loved it. Count me in as a big fan of Harras/Epting's run! While I'd discovered the Avengers a year or so prior, it was his run that made the book feel important to me. Before, AWC was the better book by far (imho) and did not feel like a spin-off. AWC was still my favorite all the way until its cancellation, but Harras & Co. elevated the OG team so at least the two books felt on par with each other.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 20, 2021 22:05:04 GMT -5
There are people who LIKE Harras? wow.. that's a bit shocking to me too. Bomber jackets are unifying I guess, but not in a good way.
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