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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 2:14:16 GMT -5
Well, let's just say I disagree thoroughly with you on what is and isn't art, what is and isn't censorship, who exactly the market for Aldebaran comics are, and what is and isn't a legitimate gripe on behalf of artists regarding what is being done to their work. What would you call something that was created with the intent of it being mass produced and sold then? -M |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 2:19:49 GMT -5
Well, let's just say I disagree thoroughly with you on what is and isn't art, what is and isn't censorship, who exactly the market for Aldebaran comics are, and what is and isn't a legitimate gripe on behalf of artists regarding what is being done to their work. What would you call something that was created with the intent of it being mass produced and sold then? -M Depends. Was it a corporate mandated body of work that was assigned to him as an employee? Or was it his creation, something from his soul? Is literature art? All of literature is meant to be mass produced. How about every holy text ever written in the history of mankind, dating as far back as clay tablets? All of it was meant to be distributed. Am I comparing Aldebaran to the Bible? No. But what I am saying is just because something is in a periodical doesn't mean it's throwaway garbage entertainment. Can film be art? Surely. Is Fast & Furious art? I'd say no. Is music art? Even when it's not listened to live? If there was a fine art magazine doing an article on High Renaissance sculpture and they drew bikinis on everybody as to not offend the readers, would they actually end up offending more of their target audience than if they had done nothing? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 2:41:39 GMT -5
But high Renaissance art wasn't created with the intent of it being mass produced and sold. And it was likely created to the specifications of the patron who commissioned it rather than the artist's vision. Leonardo, Michelangelo and others often had to alter the final product of their creations to met the desires of their patrons. You can see changes made by looking at surviving correspondences and studies done over the course of the creation of the pieces where they exist. The idea that art is the sole vision of one individual is usually exaggerated if not an outright myth created in the 19th and 20th centuries and perpetuated since then. Many of the Renaissance artists had assistants/apprentices, etc. that helped them execute the final product. Most writers hire an edit to suggest and make changes before the manuscript is complete and have alpha and beta readers supply feedback before the finished product is seen/sold, etc. etc.
Is a company that produces a kid's version of Treasure Island censoring it? How about an abridged version a la Reader's Digest? How about a modernized version of the New Testament? Are those censorship? (Though I might give you that the King James version of the Bible is censored since things James I didn't like were changed to fit his views by those working on it). Is it preventing the original from being seen or sold? Is it calling for all other versions to be destroyed so it can be the one true version of the work? Is Cinebook saying that their version is the only version? Are they calling for other versions to be destroyed or pulled from the market trying to prevent it from reaching readers? Are they altering the original art so all future versions lack the nudity? Is every alteration of the original censorship since it is preventing you from seeing the original? How about if stuff is added like an illustrated version those additions control what you see instead of letting the original paint he picture with words? Where is the line drawn?
-M
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 2:45:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I think those abridged novels are an atrocity. As far as translations, I've already covered that.
And no, Cinebook is not calling for all other versions to be destroyed. Walmart isn't calling for all rap albums found outside their store to be destroyed either. Is what they're doing still censorship, even though that rap music was made to be reproduced and distributed?
Is Cinebooks an apprentice helping Leo finish his work?
Is MAUS not art? It won a Pulitzer, and no, it wasn't the original art they were handing the prize to. If they had edited out all the Holocaust parts to appease to a market of holocaust deniers would that make any sense at all?
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Post by benday-dot on Jul 1, 2015 7:21:17 GMT -5
Let me ask a related question then-is editing a theatrically released movie for broadcast on network television an act of censorship? Or is it altering a product for a different market that has different needs and requirements than the original market the product was distributed in? -M Yes, editing a movie for television for purposes of removing nudity is certainly an act of censorship. We may be placating the needs of the vulnerable domestic viewer, but the doesn't erase the hidden touch of the censor. |
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Post by benday-dot on Jul 1, 2015 7:49:43 GMT -5
Well, let's just say I disagree thoroughly with you on what is and isn't art, what is and isn't censorship, who exactly the market for Aldebaran comics are, and what is and isn't a legitimate gripe on behalf of artists regarding what is being done to their work. What would you call something that was created with the intent of it being mass produced and sold then? -M Dupont and antoine are right. Whether something is mass produced or singularly produced in an artisanal studio has no bearing on whether an object is art. Art is neither forged in nor divorced from the marketplace, but endures or fades in the milieu of either. The clearest example is pop art, or kitsch art. A image of 32 reproduced Campbell Soup cans such as Andy Warhol saw fit to create in celebration of commercialization is transformed into art. Comics, cheaply and mass produced ultra commercial phamplets, with all those bright four coloured expositions of image and stark declarative are indeed art. Comics are Pop Art. It is not just a clever phrase, but something real. Pop art calls itself art precisely because it is not that unique illuminated manuscript from the hand of monk. Pop art is the embrace of the opposite... the abundantly and exuberantly sown. A thing doesn't have to be unique and unreproducible to be considered art. That was a view that perished with the printing press centuries ago. Popular culture, the very height of mass dissemination for the marketplace, is proof that art is many a headed thing. |
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Post by Rob Allen on Sept 25, 2015 16:23:56 GMT -5
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Post by berkley on Oct 22, 2015 2:02:22 GMT -5
Haven't had chance to read any of it yet, but thanks for that link Rob.
Anyone have any Blutch recommendations? I recently came across some samples of his work on-line and thought I might give Péplum or Total Jazz a try one of these days.
But the next European comic I plan to read, hopefully pretty soon, is Tardi's Le Cri du Peuple, about the 1871 Paris Commune. A lot of my recent non-comics reading has been from around that era or a little later so it should be interesting.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Oct 22, 2015 5:04:16 GMT -5
Anyone have any Blutch recommendations? Blutch clearly is one of the best european cartoonists these past few decades, I get all his stuff religiously. I strongly recommend those : Vitesse Moderne Donjon Monster #9 (from the hilariously funny Dungeon series, though that volume isn't really on the funny side) La Volupté Blotch I have no clue what's published in English, but sometimes, the pictures are self explicatory... I'd suggest you checked Blain's work as well. Also strong on blacks/shadows, somewhat more cartoony though.     |
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Post by berkley on Oct 22, 2015 22:24:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions. I've read both Quai d'Orsay volumes and have been meaning to look for more of Blain's work.
Apparently NYRB is bringing out English translations of some European BD, including Blutch's Peplum, though I might try to muddle through it in French.
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Post by Dizzy D on Oct 26, 2015 6:07:11 GMT -5
So the new Asterix came out: An improbement over the last one, which I found a decent start for a new team on a title with a history as big as Asterix. This time the team seems to be more relaxed. Still not Goscinny/Uderzo at their best levels, but an enjoyable comic nonetheless.
Franka; the upcoming issue, 1948, has been moved to december.
Also bought Donjon (Twilight) 106: Revolutions, which came out relatively recent over here, but has been out for some time in france and already got an english translation.
And I bought Rhonda #2, but haven't gotten a chance to read it yet.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Oct 26, 2015 6:54:53 GMT -5
As for Blain, his Gus series (first page I posted on this thread) is really fantastic, highest suggestion.
Happy to see that Donjon/Dungeon is getting publication states side, and some love too. Donjon ended some 2-3 years ago now. It was sad as this was the only long-run semi-serialzed french comic I looked forward to. It sure lacked its initial "bang", but it continued o believe in its own world building in a great fashion.
That said, I guess that you can't go wrong with Lewis Trondheim, one of the best writers the medium has seen in the past 30 years, and I mean my words.
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Post by dupersuper on Oct 27, 2015 8:13:26 GMT -5
I just watched a documentary about Moebius on Youtube.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 12:50:50 GMT -5
I just watched a documentary about Moebius on Youtube. Link? -M |
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Post by berkley on Oct 27, 2015 15:16:13 GMT -5
As for Blain, his Gus series (first page I posted on this thread) is really fantastic, highest suggestion. Happy to see that Donjon/Dungeon is getting publication states side, and some love too. Donjon ended some 2-3 years ago now. It was sad as this was the only long-run semi-serialzed french comic I looked forward to. It sure lacked its initial "bang", but it continued o believe in its own world building in a great fashion. That said, I guess that you can't go wrong with Lewis Trondheim, one of the best writers the medium has seen in the past 30 years, and I mean my words. What are the 2nd and 3rd pages from? I like the look of those |
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