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Post by james on Oct 15, 2021 8:33:12 GMT -5
It is deeply annoying. There's a whole generation out there who is honestly believe they're Marvel or DC fans who've never read a comic and don't want to. Utterly clueless. Gate-keeping is a part of fandom I've never understood. Who are we to decide what makes someone a fan? If they like Batman because they think the symbol looks cool...then they're a fan. If they liked the Tim Burton Films...they're a fan. If the Mego doll was their favorite toy as a kid...then they can be a fan. And owning every issue of Batman ever made doesn't make one better in any way, shape or form. Your "fandomness" isn't greater than the girl who identifies with Batman because she thinks the t-shirt looks cool and looking down on her because she doesn't know exactly which issue the yellow shield symbol first showed up doesn't help anything. I don't begrudge anyone for liking what they like but it does annoy me when they want to tell me a characters origin and totally blow me of when I try educate them on the characters original origin.
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 15, 2021 9:10:44 GMT -5
Gate-keeping is a part of fandom I've never understood. Who are we to decide what makes someone a fan? If they like Batman because they think the symbol looks cool...then they're a fan. If they liked the Tim Burton Films...they're a fan. If the Mego doll was their favorite toy as a kid...then they can be a fan. And owning every issue of Batman ever made doesn't make one better in any way, shape or form. Your "fandomness" isn't greater than the girl who identifies with Batman because she thinks the t-shirt looks cool and looking down on her because she doesn't know exactly which issue the yellow shield symbol first showed up doesn't help anything. I don't begrudge anyone for liking what they like but it does annoy me when they want to tell me a characters origin and totally blow me of when I try educate them on the characters original origin. Well, we must allow for the protean nature of these characters' history. It might well be that our old-timer view of who Brainiac 5 "really" is doesn't click with modern fans of the character who discovered him on TV. We may feel that the origin we were privy to (the original one!) should take precedence, but since these characters keep being reinvented, it could be that only a historically-minded new fan would care. If said fan is in a mood to argue, they might even say that it makes no sense for Tony Stark to have been injured in Vietnam, since he'd be pushing 80 by now... and although I know that the real Tony Stark (insofar as there is such a thing!) was not hurt in Afghanistan as he was in the movies, I could hardly disagree that the comics' timeline makes little sense after so many decades. As you say, I don't begrudge people for liking what they like, and I understand that the version of a character they discovered first will always be the "real" one to them. (I know people who prefer the Star Wars prequels to the original trilogy! Go figure).
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Post by tonebone on Oct 15, 2021 9:52:46 GMT -5
Anyone else tired of people explaining the MARVEL and DC HISTORY to them when all they’ve ever seen are the movies and tv series? Sorry for sounding so stuck up but I just had to vent. My sister finished Gotham and was raving about it. I explained the comic Victor Zsasz to her and she was Not even remotely interested. Speaking as someone who's read a lot of comics, I think my eyes would glaze over if someone tried to explain "DC history to me". Superman suddenly has a teen-aged son? Commissioner Gordon was Batman for a while? Wally West is a bad guy? wha-? Even as someone who understands that DC loses faith in what it's doing every several years and starts again, there's only so much "So after Flashpoint, but before 5G which never happened, but kind of/sort of did for a bit, DC started bringing back some post-Crisis stuff which didn't completely gel with Birthright but that was ok because that only affected Superman and only for about six months, but Infinite Crisis..." I could take before I remembered why new comics aren't my thing. And don't the comics take enough from the films that it might even be easier to understand the comics if you understand the films? Sassy Aunt May; Lucius Fox knows who Batman is; Wonder Woman was the first superhero? But, up until Infinite Crisis-New52, the history was pretty easy to digest. There was a profound brilliance in transforming the lengthy history of DC into a parallel world architecture that could keep the legacy characters around and have them periodically interact with their contemporary counterparts. My feeling is that no one really had any of the confusion DC cited in the justification of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Even as a child, I understood the Earth 1, Earth 2, etc. concept, and delighted in their existence. The concept of a multiverse was simply ahead of its time, and now is a common theme in pop culture. Even COIE was easily explainable as a "realignment" of the multiverse. Where it gets REALLY sticky is the post Infinite Crisis mucking about and grasping at straws for interesting "company wide" events. During this time, the concept of a multiverse/parallel realities was largely driven by individual writers or editors... Geoff Johns, Grant Morrisson, etc who each had their own ideas. By the time Flashpoint/New52 happened, even I was confused, and gave it all up. And I am totally befuddled by what has come, since.
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 15, 2021 10:01:24 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who's read a lot of comics, I think my eyes would glaze over if someone tried to explain "DC history to me". Superman suddenly has a teen-aged son? Commissioner Gordon was Batman for a while? Wally West is a bad guy? wha-? Even as someone who understands that DC loses faith in what it's doing every several years and starts again, there's only so much "So after Flashpoint, but before 5G which never happened, but kind of/sort of did for a bit, DC started bringing back some post-Crisis stuff which didn't completely gel with Birthright but that was ok because that only affected Superman and only for about six months, but Infinite Crisis..." I could take before I remembered why new comics aren't my thing. And don't the comics take enough from the films that it might even be easier to understand the comics if you understand the films? Sassy Aunt May; Lucius Fox knows who Batman is; Wonder Woman was the first superhero? But, up until Infinite Crisis-New52, the history was pretty easy to digest. There was a profound brilliance in transforming the lengthy history of DC into a parallel world architecture that could keep the legacy characters around and have them periodically interact with their contemporary counterparts. My feeling is that no one really had any of the confusion DC cited in the justification of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Even as a child, I understood the Earth 1, Earth 2, etc. concept, and delighted in their existence. The concept of a multiverse was simply ahead of its time, and now is a common theme in pop culture. Even COIE was easily explainable as a "realignment" of the multiverse. Where it gets REALLY sticky is the post Infinite Crisis mucking about and grasping at straws for interesting "company wide" events. During this time, the concept of a multiverse/parallel realities was largely driven by individual writers or editors... Geoff Johns, Grant Morrisson, etc who each had their own ideas. By the time Flashpoint/New52 happened, even I was confused, and gave it all up. And I am totally befuddled by what has come, since. That! I (and many another poster here) have said this for years. COIE was a solution where there wasn't a problem. I got it back when I read my first Earth-Two story when I was about ten. And I was no science major. And now nobody can make sense of the dog's breakfast that is the DC uni-multi-cosmiverse
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Post by tingramretro on Oct 15, 2021 10:07:42 GMT -5
I don't begrudge anyone for liking what they like but it does annoy me when they want to tell me a characters origin and totally blow me of when I try educate them on the characters original origin. Well, we must allow for the protean nature of these characters' history. It might well be that our old-timer view of who Brainiac 5 "really" is doesn't click with modern fans of the character who discovered him on TV. We may feel that the origin we were privy to (the original one!) should take precedence, but since these characters keep being reinvented, it could be that only a historically-minded new fan would care. If said fan is in a mood to argue, they might even say that it makes no sense for Tony Stark to have been injured in Vietnam, since he'd be pushing 80 by now... and although I know that the real Tony Stark (insofar as there is such a thing!) was not hurt in Afghanistan as he was in the movies, I could hardly disagree that the comics' timeline makes little sense after so many decades. As you say, I don't begrudge people for liking what they like, and I understand that the version of a character they discovered first will always be the "real" one to them. (I know people who prefer the Star Wars prequels to the original trilogy! Go figure). But Tony Stark's origin has been updated in the comics over the years to fit Marvel's sliding timescale. So by about ten years ago, he was injured in Afghanistan.
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 15, 2021 11:43:32 GMT -5
Well, we must allow for the protean nature of these characters' history. It might well be that our old-timer view of who Brainiac 5 "really" is doesn't click with modern fans of the character who discovered him on TV. We may feel that the origin we were privy to (the original one!) should take precedence, but since these characters keep being reinvented, it could be that only a historically-minded new fan would care. If said fan is in a mood to argue, they might even say that it makes no sense for Tony Stark to have been injured in Vietnam, since he'd be pushing 80 by now... and although I know that the real Tony Stark (insofar as there is such a thing!) was not hurt in Afghanistan as he was in the movies, I could hardly disagree that the comics' timeline makes little sense after so many decades. As you say, I don't begrudge people for liking what they like, and I understand that the version of a character they discovered first will always be the "real" one to them. (I know people who prefer the Star Wars prequels to the original trilogy! Go figure). But Tony Stark's origin has been updated in the comics over the years to fit Marvel's sliding timescale. So by about ten years ago, he was injured in Afghanistan. See? Those things do change. That was my point.
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Post by brutalis on Oct 15, 2021 12:34:38 GMT -5
I have a friend and his mom that are big fans of the Marvel movies. Neither have ever read a comic book or any interest for reading a comic book. They love to pump me for information on the upcoming movies and characters and once they watch one will spend hours having me explain all of the history and details and differences.
But they will NOT read a comic book. They are still fans of the characters but NOT of comics. I tell them quite often they could never enjoy the Marvel movies today if it wasn't for us kids and fans buying the comics in the past and present. But they are fans by support in the see the movies, buy the DVD's, buy T-Shirts and other side products. I encourage them and understand I adore comics and they don't but it doesn't make their fandom any less true than mine.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 15, 2021 14:57:38 GMT -5
But, up until Infinite Crisis-New52, the history was pretty easy to digest...... By the time Flashpoint/New52 happened, even I was confused, and gave it all up. And I am totally befuddled by what has come, since. Oh HELL YEAH!!!
Shortly after ZERO HOUR (remember that one?), the main point of which was to DUMP the mess that LEGION continuity had become, and bring the series in line with the rest of Post-Crisis/New DCU (8 years late... heh)... my best friend, a LEGION fan, said...
"WHY should I care about the new continuity, if they're just gonna change it AGAIN in 5 years?"
Boy, did he nail that one right.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 15, 2021 15:02:38 GMT -5
I (and many another poster here) have said this for years. COIE was a solution where there wasn't a problem. I got it back when I read my first Earth-Two story when I was about ten. And I was no science major. And now nobody can make sense of the dog's breakfast that is the DC uni-multi-cosmiverse 100% !!!
I think it caused far more problems than it alleged to "fix". Which are STILL ongoing. (LOL)
Aside from many other things, I think it's one thing to start a brand-new continuity, especially if there's been a break following the end of an old one.
But to construct a story explaining HOW the universe changed in-story... WHAT?? (I once had to talk a friend of mine, a fellow writer, OUT of trying to do such a thing. "Just tell a good story!" I urged him.)
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 15, 2021 15:08:05 GMT -5
I have a friend and his mom that are big fans of the Marvel movies..... But they will NOT read a comic book. They are still fans of the characters but NOT of comics. I tell them quite often they could never enjoy the Marvel movies today if it wasn't for us kids and fans buying the comics in the past and present. But they are fans by support in the see the movies, buy the DVD's, buy T-Shirts and other side products. I encourage them and understand I adore comics and they don't but it doesn't make their fandom any less true than mine. These days, I don't mind the occasional TV series, but when it comes to the comics, I'd rather go back and read the earliest stories of whichever version than even try to consider the latest comics about characters who've been around far too long and are way beyond their expiration date. (I do make a distinction between creator-owned-and-controlled books and the corporate ones with endless streams of writer, artists, and editors.)
With all the changes in styles, LEGION was nice for nearly 30 years... because, wild as it was, it was all ONE unbroken continuity. Since then... OY!
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 15, 2021 15:10:53 GMT -5
But Tony Stark's origin has been updated in the comics over the years to fit Marvel's sliding timescale. So by about ten years ago, he was injured in Afghanistan. Funny enough... some of my favorite SHERLOCK HOLMES movies are the ones that take place during World War Two.
But that's a whole different thing, as, every time they recast the actors, you slip into a DIFFERENT continuity! (Same with TARZAN.)
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Post by tingramretro on Oct 15, 2021 16:09:30 GMT -5
But Tony Stark's origin has been updated in the comics over the years to fit Marvel's sliding timescale. So by about ten years ago, he was injured in Afghanistan. Funny enough... some of my favorite SHERLOCK HOLMES movies are the ones that take place during World War Two.
But that's a whole different thing, as, every time they recast the actors, you slip into a DIFFERENT continuity! (Same with TARZAN.)
Much as I love Conan Doyle's original stories, and the classic TV version with Jeremy Brett, my favourite screen version of Holmes is Benedict Cumberbatch in Steven Moffat's "Sherlock", which of course is set in the present day.
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 15, 2021 16:29:33 GMT -5
My feeling is that no one really had any of the confusion DC cited in the justification of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Even as a child, I understood the Earth 1, Earth 2, etc. concept, and delighted in their existence. It was not just about reader "confusion" but the writers and editors of numerous Silver to Bronze Age DC titles were all over the place with few of their Earth 1 / 2 crossovers having any sort of continuity which made sense, or had an impact beyond a random two-parter. I was there to read many of the titles which used and inflated the "multiverse" idea to ridiculous degrees that did not add to any sound structure to their involved titles. The answer was definitely needed in the form of COIE (and its companion History of the DC Universe), which was one of the most coherent and creatively satisfying corrections in comics history.
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Post by badwolf on Oct 15, 2021 20:39:14 GMT -5
It's almost embarrassing to say this, but... I've got a HUGE collection of Agatha Christie films & TV shows on videotape... but to date, I've never read a single word of any of her stories. On the other hand, I have read 4 of John P. Marquand's MR. MOTO novels. (How many people these days can actually say that?) At least give The Murder of Roger Ackroyd a try!
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Post by tingramretro on Oct 17, 2021 16:41:48 GMT -5
I have a friend and his mom that are big fans of the Marvel movies. Neither have ever read a comic book or any interest for reading a comic book. They love to pump me for information on the upcoming movies and characters and once they watch one will spend hours having me explain all of the history and details and differences. But they will NOT read a comic book. They are still fans of the characters but NOT of comics. I tell them quite often they could never enjoy the Marvel movies today if it wasn't for us kids and fans buying the comics in the past and present. But they are fans by support in the see the movies, buy the DVD's, buy T-Shirts and other side products. I encourage them and understand I adore comics and they don't but it doesn't make their fandom any less true than mine. I just do not and never will understand that. It's like saying you're a Star Wars fan but you've never watched a Star Wars movie and don't want to. Sure, you might read the comics and watch the animated series' or The Mandalorian, but the fact is, at its heart, Star Wars is a movie series. And Spider-Man and Captain America are comic characters.
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