shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 6, 2014 1:38:30 GMT -5
This stems from my review thread devoted to Wizard Magazine, though it's really a separate topic. I got into comics during the speculation boom of the 1990s and, considering the long lasting ramifications it had on the industry, I'm surprised folks haven't spent more time exploring it. So I'm trying to piece together my own understanding of how and when it began and ended, and I welcome your input as I try to assemble an approximate timeline of causality. Here's what I've got: Mid 1980s - The rise of direct market comic shops energizes fandoms and also drives up interest in back issue collecting. 1986 - The Dark Knight Returns and the Superman reboot attract wider attention to comic books. 1988 - Denny O'Neil begins conducting a variety of marketing experiments through Batman, introducing multi-part story arcs, as well as The Cult limited series, which introduced Die Cut covers and tested whether fans would pay a higher price for a comic with a higher quality production value. Then, with A Death in the Family, you have the phone-in voting gimmick, as well as wild fluctuations in price points across four issues to test what fans were willing to pay to get the full story. 1989 - Batman film is released, bringing a whole new audience to comic books. O'Neil scales up his experiments, offering premium trade paperbacks like Arkham Asylum at absurdly high price points in contrast to affordably produced ones like Gotham by Gaslight to see what the difference in sales would be, introducing a third Batman title to see if fans would buy it, taking Batman and Detective Comics bi-weekly to see if fans would buy up to FIVE Batman books in a single month, doing variant covers for Legends of the Dark Knight #1, doing a cross-over with a lesser performing, direct-edition-only title in Lonely Place of Dying, etc. The results clearly showed that this generation of fans was willing to shell out a lot more than publishers had previously suspected. 1991 - Marvel begins applying the lessons O'Neil learned to its own marketing, introducing multi-part story arcs, new titles for old properties, variant covers, and other gimmicky incentives, most infamously with Spider-Man #1, X-Force #1, and X-Men #1. Each proved to be the highest grossing comic of all time, and yet none of the three featured any significant content nor first appearances whatsoever. Encouraged by variant editions (Spider-Man came in color, Silver, color polybagged, and Silver polybagged; X-Force came with 1 of 5 trading cards; X-men came with five different covers), the average customer bought multiple copies of each issue, convinced they would be collector's items. Some media outlets, if I recall correctly, even begin stating that buying comics is a safer investment than buying a house. Wizard magazine hits the scene. The jury is still out on whether they further stirred up comic book speculation at this point. 1992 - The rise of Valiant and Image. Valiant took incentives and creative marketing to a whole new level with its dealer incentive editions and send-away exclusives, and Image pumps out #1 issue after #1 issue, trading more on artist names than actual content. 1993 - Refusing to stoop to the level of its competitors (other than with Robin II: The Joker's Wild), DC tries to hype actual significant events over insubstantial gimmicks with The Death of Superman. While this initially boosts sales tremendously and brings DC renewed attention, it ultimately backfires when it becomes obvious that there were no real long term ramifications from this event. The status quo was restored, albeit with a super mullet. DC than repeats this formula with Batman: Knightfall, which similarly produces initially impressive results but ultimately leaves fans feeling jaded. 1994 - comic sales begin to dip(?) 1998 - it becomes apparent that comic sales are actually significantly lower than they were before the Speculation boom began(?) Am I on the right track here?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 2:03:37 GMT -5
shaxper, The rise of Valiant and Image Comics - especially Image Comics took away some of the fanfare of both DC and Marvel Comics and what I'm adding here is that these companies offer something new and afresh look of Comics than ever before and having said that I remember many comic book readers complained the constant re-booting of Batman, Superman, Spiderman, X-Men, X-Force, and other titles that I just got tired of them right around mid-1992 and by time 1993 rolled around I've shifted my attention to both Image and Valiant Comics for 2 years and I didn't find anything that I like except this title below that was a favorite of mine for several years that Image created in the first place. I just eat this up in a heartbeat for a good 2-3 years and I just loved the Cartoon Show - That Jim Lee and his production company put together. At that time during early part of the 90's ... I was spending 30% of my Comic Book Monies to Image Comics and that's causes my time with both DC Comics and Marvel Comics to go downhill fast by time mid-1994.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 2:06:14 GMT -5
1992 - The rise of Valiant and Image. Valiant took incentives and creative marketing to a whole new level with its dealer incentive editions and send-away exclusives, and Image pumps out #1 issue after #1 issue, trading more on artist names than actual content. 1993 - Refusing to stoop to the level of its competitors (other than with Robin II: The Joker's Wild), DC tries to hype actual significant events over insubstantial gimmicks with The Death of Superman. While this initially boosts sales tremendously and brings DC renewed attention, it ultimately backfires when it becomes obvious that there were no real long term ramifications from this event. The status quo was restored, albeit with a super mullet. DC than repeats this formula with Batman: Knightfall, which similarly produces initially impressive results but ultimately leaves fans feeling jaded. 1994 - comic sales begin to dip(?) 1998 - it becomes apparent that comic sales are actually significantly lower than they were before the Speculation boom began(?) Am I on the right track here? I agree with this portion 100% and you are definitely on the right track here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 3:20:00 GMT -5
Well Marvel was doing some of those things earlier than your timeline-mutliple part storylines in multiple titles like Asgardian Wars in X-Men/Alpha Flight/New Mutants annuals and minis circa 1986, Fall of the Mutants running through all the X-books 1987 etc. And Marvel was the one experimenting with formats, the Marvel Graphic Novel line seeing if higher priced products with higher production values would sell in the direct market as far back as the early 80s, with several of those receiving multiple printings and having first prints increase in prices due to speculation or what not well before the Bat-mania hit. Then you have the indy books selling similar page counts as the big 2 with higher paper quality for a much higher price point in the mid 80's proving the market would be such before O'Neil did it. He wasn't so much experimenting as chasing a trend already in place.
And the speculation boom had its infancy much earleir than your time lime with the black and white boom and bust of the mid-80s when Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (not Image of Valiant) was the darling of speculators and any small press black and white book (Adolescent Black Belt Hamsters anyone?) was quickly getting snapped up and going for multiples of cover in a few short months and the market was inundated with them as anyone who could hold a pencil and pay for the books to be printed was putting out books , and some collectors were dutifully buying each one to see if it would be the next TMNT and the term hot books entered into the collector lingo at that time. O'Neil was still writing at MArvel and not editing at DC when all this was happening, so he is not the innovator of all these trends that lead to the speculator boom. He looked at what worked and didn't work, and so did a lot of other folks, and applied those lessons to mainstream comics and others to start up companies in the early 90s. The speculator boom and bust of the 90s was basically a lockstep repeat of the black and white boom and bust of the 80s, just on a larger scale because it encompassed the whole industry and not just the indy corner of it that the B&W cycle did. Those who were in on the b&w boom and learned from it managed to avoid some of the excesses and survive the crash of the 90s (i..e a lot of the well established retailers who emerged fro the crash still fairly healthy who didn't sacrifice their core business model chasing the illusory brass ring this time around-they still had cases of unsold b&w books laying around to remind them of the dangers of doing so).
DC had been experimenting with variant covers before O'Neill arrived as well. Man of Steel #1 had different newsstand and direct covers well before Marvel or DC did variants. There were test covers to Justice League #3 and Fury of Firestorm (forget the issue #) that sold only in certain markets just after the Legends mini, which built on the model of DC testing cover prices in select markets (like they did with the Amethyst maxi back in '82-83 with 35 cent variants selling in certain markets while other books were 60 cent cover prices).
I'd also push the rise of the direct market back to the early 80s. A lot of publishers that were direct market only were emerging in the period between '80-'82 (Eclipse, First, Comico, etc. all emerging in that period). You also have the experimentation with mini-series and maxi-series in the ealry 80s to test formats, pricing, etc. that paved the way for the later experimentation with formats (Prestige, New Format, Baxter series, etc. in the late 80s), and some of DCs better sellers (Titans and Legion) going direct only as early as 1984, which they wouldn't have done if the direct market hadn't already proved itself viable to sustain a book at the level of sales those did.
So I would say you are laying a lot a the feet of O'Neil that was actually a byproduct of trends running in the market much earlier than his tenure as Bat-editor, and the origins of the speculator boom/bust of the 90s has its roots much earlier than your timeline suggests. The infrastructure which allowed for it to happen and earlier occurrences of it on a smaller scale were occurring in the early-mid 80s.
-M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 6, 2014 6:00:18 GMT -5
I think you have to go back much further to find the start of some of that... Roy Thomas as EiC was experimenting with formats and prices.... the Giant-Sized Marvel Comics, rather than being the re-named annuals most people think of now, were meant to be regular series (at least, according to what Roy wrote in the comics at the time), they just didn't catch on.
Then you also have DC's price increase (and adding of reprint material) to stuff as documented by Scott in his Superman Thread... followed by stuff like 100-page giants, digests featuring the years best stories, etc/
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 6, 2014 7:56:19 GMT -5
I think you have to go back much further to find the start of some of that... Roy Thomas as EiC was experimenting with formats and prices.... the Giant-Sized Marvel Comics, rather than being the re-named annuals most people think of now, were meant to be regular series (at least, according to what Roy wrote in the comics at the time), they just didn't catch on. Then you also have DC's price increase (and adding of reprint material) to stuff as documented by Scott in his Superman Thread... followed by stuff like 100-page giants, digests featuring the years best stories, etc/ But those tactics largely didn't work. In my mind, those marked a first era of attempting to raise revenues, which ultimately failed. The multi-arcs and creative marketing of the late 1980s was sort of a version 2.0, tried on a different generation of readers, as I see it.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 6, 2014 8:07:56 GMT -5
Well Marvel was doing some of those things earlier than your timeline-mutliple part storylines in multiple titles like Asgardian Wars in X-Men/Alpha Flight/New Mutants annuals and minis circa 1986, Fall of the Mutants running through all the X-books 1987 etc. And Marvel was the one experimenting with formats, the Marvel Graphic Novel line seeing if higher priced products with higher production values would sell in the direct market as far back as the early 80s, with several of those receiving multiple printings and having first prints increase in prices due to speculation or what not well before the Bat-mania hit. Then you have the indy books selling similar page counts as the big 2 with higher paper quality for a much higher price point in the mid 80's proving the market would be such before O'Neil did it. He wasn't so much experimenting as chasing a trend already in place. And the speculation boom had its infancy much earleir than your time lime with the black and white boom and bust of the mid-80s when Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (not Image of Valiant) was the darling of speculators and any small press black and white book (Adolescent Black Belt Hamsters anyone?) was quickly getting snapped up and going for multiples of cover in a few short months and the market was inundated with them as anyone who could hold a pencil and pay for the books to be printed was putting out books , and some collectors were dutifully buying each one to see if it would be the next TMNT and the term hot books entered into the collector lingo at that time. O'Neil was still writing at MArvel and not editing at DC when all this was happening, so he is not the innovator of all these trends that lead to the speculator boom. He looked at what worked and didn't work, and so did a lot of other folks, and applied those lessons to mainstream comics and others to start up companies in the early 90s. The speculator boom and bust of the 90s was basically a lockstep repeat of the black and white boom and bust of the 80s, just on a larger scale because it encompassed the whole industry and not just the indy corner of it that the B&W cycle did. Those who were in on the b&w boom and learned from it managed to avoid some of the excesses and survive the crash of the 90s (i..e a lot of the well established retailers who emerged fro the crash still fairly healthy who didn't sacrifice their core business model chasing the illusory brass ring this time around-they still had cases of unsold b&w books laying around to remind them of the dangers of doing so). DC had been experimenting with variant covers before O'Neill arrived as well. Man of Steel #1 had different newsstand and direct covers well before Marvel or DC did variants. There were test covers to Justice League #3 and Fury of Firestorm (forget the issue #) that sold only in certain markets just after the Legends mini, which built on the model of DC testing cover prices in select markets (like they did with the Amethyst maxi back in '82-83 with 35 cent variants selling in certain markets while other books were 60 cent cover prices). I'd also push the rise of the direct market back to the early 80s. A lot of publishers that were direct market only were emerging in the period between '80-'82 (Eclipse, First, Comico, etc. all emerging in that period). You also have the experimentation with mini-series and maxi-series in the ealry 80s to test formats, pricing, etc. that paved the way for the later experimentation with formats (Prestige, New Format, Baxter series, etc. in the late 80s), and some of DCs better sellers (Titans and Legion) going direct only as early as 1984, which they wouldn't have done if the direct market hadn't already proved itself viable to sustain a book at the level of sales those did. So I would say you are laying a lot a the feet of O'Neil that was actually a byproduct of trends running in the market much earlier than his tenure as Bat-editor, and the origins of the speculator boom/bust of the 90s has its roots much earlier than your timeline suggests. The infrastructure which allowed for it to happen and earlier occurrences of it on a smaller scale were occurring in the early-mid 80s. -M This is all GREAT information, mrp. Thank you. Perhaps it's more fair to say O'Neil built upon those foundations as a means of trying to raise revenue on DC's most successful franchise which, he made clear in at least one interview, was the specific charge he was given when hired to take over the Bat Office.
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Post by MDG on Nov 6, 2014 10:43:37 GMT -5
DC had been experimenting with variant covers before O'Neill arrived as well. Man of Steel #1 had different newsstand and direct covers well before Marvel or DC did variants. There were test covers to Justice League #3 and Fury of Firestorm (forget the issue #) that sold only in certain markets just after the Legends mini, which built on the model of DC testing cover prices in select markets (like they did with the Amethyst maxi back in '82-83 with 35 cent variants selling in certain markets while other books were 60 cent cover prices). DC was also experimenting with formats in terms of different paper stocks and printing technologies in the 80s (and I think largely under Dick Giordano as EIC), but that was presented as attempts to provide a better product (and justifying higher prices) I'd also push the rise of the direct market back to the early 80s. A lot of publishers that were direct market only were emerging in the period between '80-'82 (Eclipse, First, Comico, etc. all emerging in that period). One of the major differences in the publishers that came out in the early 80s and those that appeared in the 90s (Image, Malibu, Defiant) is that the 80s publishers seemed to position themselves as a clear alternative to the big 2, while the 90s group competed more head-to-head with their own superheroes.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 11:01:13 GMT -5
ALso of note-Marvel's biggest selling titles X-Men and Spider-Man, went bi-weekly for the summer the summer the Batman movie came out, before the Bat-titles got the movie boost and did. And they did special storylines in it-The Assassination Plot and the first Reavers storyline. A few other might have as well-Bloodstone Hunt in Cap was that summer too I think. At that point, the sales cycle in comics was still that comics sold better in summer when kids were out of school, and instead of summer annuals, Marvel capitalized with more issues of better selling books. I think the next summer pretty much the entire Marvel line went bi-weekly for the summer, even smaller sellers like Conan went bi-weekly for summer eventually.
So I think O'Neill was most likely seeing what worked and then taking it and appplying it to the Bat-books rather than coming up with these things himself.
-M
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Post by Randle-El on Nov 6, 2014 11:03:52 GMT -5
I don't have any data to back this up, but I wonder if some of it might be attributed to a generation of readers/collectors reaching adulthood in time for companies to take advantage of their greater disposable income? I liken it to the growth of the video game market in the 90s and early 21st century. Console games in the 80s were largely marketed towards children, and you have a whole generation who grew up playing them. As they grew older, the companies realized that this wasn't a fad and that kids were sticking with games. So as they grew older and demanded better graphics, sound, and more sophisticated game play, companies were happy to cater to their demands, with increased price points to grow the revenues. At the turn of the century, it was becoming abundantly clear that video games customers were now mostly adults -- the same adults who grew up on the Atari 2600, NES, Sega Genesis, etc -- and you see this reflected in the content, marketing, and price points for games.
Would the speculator boom still have happened if comics were still being purchased mostly by kids with allowance money?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 6, 2014 11:11:41 GMT -5
I don't have any data to back this up, but I wonder if some of it might be attributed to a generation of readers/collectors reaching adulthood in time for companies to take advantage of their greater disposable income? I liken it to the growth of the video game market in the 90s and early 21st century. Console games in the 80s were largely marketed towards children, and you have a whole generation who grew up playing them. As they grew older, the companies realized that this wasn't a fad and that kids were sticking with games. So as they grew older and demanded better graphics, sound, and more sophisticated game play, companies were happy to cater to their demands, with increased price points to grow the revenues. At the turn of the century, it was becoming abundantly clear that video games customers were now mostly adults -- the same adults who grew up on the Atari 2600, NES, Sega Genesis, etc -- and you see this reflected in the content, marketing, and price points for games. Would the speculator boom still have happened if comics were still being purchased mostly by kids with allowance money? A great theory, but a Diamond survey conducted in 1991 (just after X-Force #1 broke all sales records and the Speculator Bubble was in full swing), provided the following data: *the largest group of comic book readers were 19-25 years old (33% of sales) *13-18 year olds made up 25% *26-35 year olds were 22% *preteens and 35+ were grouped together as 11%. [/quote] I suppose a 25 year old would have more cash than he did when he was 12, but not the kind of disposable income a 35 year old would have.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 6, 2014 11:25:08 GMT -5
I don't have any data to back this up, but I wonder if some of it might be attributed to a generation of readers/collectors reaching adulthood in time for companies to take advantage of their greater disposable income? I liken it to the growth of the video game market in the 90s and early 21st century. Console games in the 80s were largely marketed towards children, and you have a whole generation who grew up playing them. As they grew older, the companies realized that this wasn't a fad and that kids were sticking with games. So as they grew older and demanded better graphics, sound, and more sophisticated game play, companies were happy to cater to their demands, with increased price points to grow the revenues. At the turn of the century, it was becoming abundantly clear that video games customers were now mostly adults -- the same adults who grew up on the Atari 2600, NES, Sega Genesis, etc -- and you see this reflected in the content, marketing, and price points for games. Would the speculator boom still have happened if comics were still being purchased mostly by kids with allowance money? Your analogy is the point of the documentary Video Games: The Movie, available on Netflix. The strength of the market now is because it's has a strong consumer base (even though the video game industry had a boom/bust when the Atari was at it's peek) which I don't think comics still have to this day, despite their growth. I think that's because as Randel mentioned, kids started playing video games with the Atari, aimed at kids, but as these kids grew up so did the industry, and so now it's a more sophisticated industry, along with it's consumer base. It also reached out to try to appeal to all people, to get a even bigger consumer base, and continues to do so, finding out what people want. I don't think comics themselves are ding that, it's movies, action figures, apparel, video games, etc they are the cash cows. I don't think the video game industry's paraphernalia is that big a part of it's success as the games and consoles themselves.
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Post by fanboystranger on Nov 6, 2014 11:32:42 GMT -5
One thing that often gets ignored in a discussion about the Speculators' Boom is that it wasn't just about content, but also means of distribution. During the bubble, Marvel would purchase Capitol Distribution with the intent of them being the sole provider of Marvel material. The idea was that Marvel would then begin to open kiosks and stores in malls with Marvel only content. This isn't work, and it crippled the alternative distribution network, leaving Diamond as the only player left. It also crippled Marvel, which had already begun to bleed talent, and we'd see the result of that in the bankruptcy days.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 11:34:47 GMT -5
One thing that often gets ignored in a discussion about the Speculators' Boom is that it wasn't just about content, but also means of distribution. During the bubble, Marvel would purchase Capitol Distribution with the intent of them being the sole provider of Marvel material. The idea was that Marvel would then begin to open kiosks and stores in malls with Marvel only content. This isn't work, and it crippled the alternative distribution network, leaving Diamond as the only player left. It also crippled Marvel, which had already begun to bleed talent, and we'd see the result of that in the bankruptcy days. I thought it was Heroes World Marvel bought, not Capital. And in reaction DC and others struck a deal with Diamond leaving Capital out in the cold. I could be wrong there though. -M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 6, 2014 11:35:17 GMT -5
One thing that often gets ignored in a discussion about the Speculators' Boom is that it wasn't just about content, but also means of distribution. During the bubble, Marvel would purchase Capitol Distribution with the intent of them being the sole provider of Marvel material. The idea was that Marvel would then begin to open kiosks and stores in malls with Marvel only content. This isn't work, and it crippled the alternative distribution network, leaving Diamond as the only player left. It also crippled Marvel, which had already begun to bleed talent, and we'd see the result of that in the bankruptcy days. I thought about including this (that all went down in 1997, I believe) but I had a little trouble connecting the dots in showing how this further led to decreased sales and/or fans leaving comics. Is this what caused comics to leave the indirect market (i.e. newsstands, grocery store racks, etc)?
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