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Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 28, 2014 12:57:55 GMT -5
I feel that its the scientific community thats of the "closed mind" way of thought. If it doesn't fit current science theories, its dismissed as fantasy,impossible. Even global warming advocates dismissively shut off critics, saying the theory is "settled". Those with open minds do not dismiss supernatural experiences so quickly because they believe there is more to learn than what the professors think are the keys to the universe
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Post by badwolf on Nov 28, 2014 13:02:51 GMT -5
Even global warming advocates dismissively shut off critics, saying the theory is "settled". As depressing as it is, it is settled and has been for decades (it's only since the new religious rise that it's become "controversial" again.) 99% of scientists (i.e. people who know anything about the subject) agree; the other 1% are paid to find something different.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 28, 2014 13:35:32 GMT -5
I feel that its the scientific community thats of the "closed mind" way of thought. That is indeed the general consensus, because whenever someone says "I saw a ghost", "I saw an alien spaceship", "I saw the yeti", "I can talk to the dead" or "the Virgin Mary appeared to me", scientists usually go "where's the evidence" and "there are simpler explanations to what you report". Like scientists are constantly trying to rain on everyone's parade. But what the general public is probably not aware of is that scientists rain on other scientists' parade all the time too, and not because of jealousy or professional interests. They do it because it is the job of a scientist to try to disprove any hypothesis. The principle on which science is built is that there is some kind of objective reality out there, and because no amount of challenges can change that reality, the more we criticize ideas, the more trust we can put in the ones that survive the ordeal. Yes, I agree. And that is a very reasonable way to act, too, because current scientific theories were arrived at after decades and sometimes centuries of work that was controlled, criticized, repeated independently, with experiments and measurements that anyone can arrive at, irrespective of their beliefs, cultural bias or preconceived ideas. For example, after thousands of years of observing that people fell ill and sometimes died, and after thousands of years of trying to explain disease by models that were not substantiated by the scientific method, we had made zero progress in health care. We still believed that diseases were caused by spirits, by curses, by God's will, by an imbalance between "humours", by a misalignment of invisible energy fields and other colourful but misguided principles. Then came the scientific method which, I hasten to say, did challenge the preconceived ideas of the most learned people of the day: and it generated the principle that disease was caused not by maledictions, but by extremely tiny life forms that could spread by contact. And because that theory was tested and shown to be true, it was rapidly adopted by all honest practitioners of medicine, and accordingly our life expectancy more than doubled and we no longer die of the plague, smallpox or syphilis. So when a TV actor shows up and peddles wristlets made of hazelwood and claims they can cure cancer, yes, scientists tend to say "that's nonsense" (to put it politely) before even checking if the claim is true. Not because they're close-minded, but because in that huge edifice of knowledge that was built by generations of people checking and double-checking facts and theories, there is no room for some surprise effect of hazelwood wristlets on cancer. This hostile reaction on the scientists' part does not need be the end of the story: if the hazelwood peddler can show that his trinkets do have an effect that can be measured, scientists will take notice. (They even study acupuncture seriously at the NIH, now). But for the peddler to defend his beliefs by simply saying "well, my hazelwood has helped me and these three other persons too so it works" just does not cut it. The burden of proof is on him, because his claim is hard to reconcile with everything else we know. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy"? I agree. There is doubtless a near infinity of things we do not understand about the universe, that we may never understand, and that we may not even be capable of understanding. Any scientist knows that. That is however no reason to accept at face value any argument made for the existence of something that is unverifiable; that way does not lie discovery, it is simply an invitation to error.
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Post by dupersuper on Nov 28, 2014 23:37:28 GMT -5
I feel that its the scientific community thats of the "closed mind" way of thought. If it doesn't fit current science theories, its dismissed as fantasy,impossible. If that was true there'd be no scientific progress. That's actually almost the exact opposite of how science works. It just that whatever's being proposed has to be substantiated with empirical evidence before it can be called a theory.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 0:52:06 GMT -5
That is indeed the general consensus, because whenever someone says "I saw a ghost", "I saw an alien spaceship", "I saw the yeti", "I can talk to the dead" or "the Virgin Mary appeared to me", scientists usually go "where's the evidence" and "there are simpler explanations to what you report". Like scientists are constantly trying to rain on everyone's parade. But what the general public is probably not aware of is that scientists rain on other scientists' parade all the time too, and not because of jealousy or professional interests. They do it because it is the job of a scientist to try to disprove any hypothesis. Scientist No. 1 might offer a theory that 'ghosts' are simply optical illusions. No. 2 might offer another, that 'ghosts' are simply hallucinations. No. 3 might go a step further and insist 'ghosts are really ball lightning. No. 4 might conclude they are really a trick of light and shadow. No. 5 might conclude they are really limits of human perception. These conclusions would have all been arrived at logically of course, and yet they are divided when it comes to opinions. In the meantime, the unknown quantities known as 'ghosts' remain the enigma that they are.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 30, 2014 9:19:33 GMT -5
That is indeed the general consensus, because whenever someone says "I saw a ghost", "I saw an alien spaceship", "I saw the yeti", "I can talk to the dead" or "the Virgin Mary appeared to me", scientists usually go "where's the evidence" and "there are simpler explanations to what you report". Like scientists are constantly trying to rain on everyone's parade. But what the general public is probably not aware of is that scientists rain on other scientists' parade all the time too, and not because of jealousy or professional interests. They do it because it is the job of a scientist to try to disprove any hypothesis. Scientist No. 1 might offer a theory that 'ghosts' are simply optical illusions. No. 2 might offer another, that 'ghosts' are simply hallucinations. No. 3 might go a step further and insist 'ghosts are really ball lightning. No. 4 might conclude they are really a trick of light and shadow. No. 5 might conclude they are really limits of human perception. These conclusions would have all been arrived at logically of course, and yet they are divided when it comes to opinions. In the meantime, the unknown quantities known as 'ghosts' remain the enigma that they are. These possible explanations are hypotheses, the first steps in trying to understand what something is. There is no requirement for every hypothesis to agree with the others, of course; it's even very common to have several ones when facing something new. Once a hypothesis is put on the table, the next step is to determine how it can be tested and how it can be properly controlled. After it's been tested, the hypothesis must allow us to make faslifiable predictions, which in turn must also be tested. And after that, we can conclude that we have a good theory on how to explain the strange phenomenon. The unknown quantities known as "ghosts", when analyzed by this process, will become less and less enigmatic. Dreams, gravity, disease, sound, light, metalurgy, emotions, stars... they are all mysterious quantities that were made less enigmatic (though no less fascinating!) by the scientific method.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 9:27:40 GMT -5
Proof of absolutely nothing, of course, & for that matter pretty typical of any number of accounts over the years, but I mentioned a few minutes ago in my "Just aboslutely bizarre" thread that my FB post about my initial home intruder & his/her ensuing mischief inspired a couple of my friends to share allegedly ghost-related experiences --
I, too, had a ghost problem at my prior residence. Kept seeing the guy standing next to the bed staring out the window. I described him to my husband, who never saw him, but he was an older gentleman who wore a fedora type hat - it was like a cross between a fedora and a cowboy hat. So, after being there for 6 years, the very day we were moving, this guy around in his 40's comes to the house. He lived in a town north of there. It turns out he just decided to get out that day and drive past. His grandfather had built the house in the 50's and had passed away in his chair in the living room. He brought a big ole 8x10 photo of said grandfather, Ethol. It was him... the guy I'd seen almost every night for the whole 6 years. He had a comforting "vibe" to him. Oh, I told the grandson about him looking out that window and he told me that there used to be a little country store across the street (we were on a corner lot), and that he and his cousins would cross the street to purchase candy from the store and "Grandpa" would watch them from the bedroom window.
Re the ghost at the house where I lived: It was a very big old farmhouse dating to the turn of the century (1900). The rooms were enormous, including a very large kitchen. When I moved in and was unpacking stuff in the kitchen, I'd be standing at the kitchen sink (with a window that faced the back yard) and suddenly be aware that someone was behind me. I'd spin around and, in the doorway from the kitchen to the dining room, there was this guy, just standing there looking at me. I'd say he was about 5'6" or 5'7'; a solid build, but not fat by any means; fairly muscular, with a very pleasant face and very thick, brown hair (think Robert Redford's hair) that fell down in bangs on his forehead and was parted on the left side of his head. He was wearing nondescript work clothes--not denim, but the kind of thing guys wore to just work around the farm or home a long time ago. So I'd spin around, he'd be there, and then he just wasn't there anymore--like when you have a floater in your eye, you blink and it's gone. He appeared probably 20 times in the first four days I was in the house, and then he wasn't around again until I married my husband...then he showed up to check out my new husband, who was of course new to the house. I saw the guy one more time, standing at the front door watching me mow on a hot summer day, and never saw him again after that. When I first encountered him, I'd usually scream when I saw him (the first 10 times or so), and when I met my new neighbors, I said to them, "I imagine you wonder why there's so much screaming coming from house." The wife, who had actually grown up in that same house, just smiled and said, "No, it doesn't surprise us"--so I gather the guy had been a long-time presence in that house.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 21:50:48 GMT -5
While watching The Conjuring over the pond, I found it really interesting that my bedroom door would creak in sync with the creaking doors in the film - with no breeze detected, and only during those scenes.
The hand clapping genuinely creeps me out...if that happened at home, I'd jump out the window in my undies if I had to.
For skeptics like Roq Raider...there are (respected) US paranormal researches like Ed (now deceased) and Lorraine Warren who have racked years worth of 'cases' and 'evidence' to support their opinions. As far as I know, that property in Harrisville, Rhode Island still exists and petrified a family of 7.
Incidently, Conjuring 2 is due next year, featuring a UK residence and 'entity' called the Enfield Poltergeist...which grabbed headlines in the UK press in the 70s. Among other things, a police-woman filed an affidavit that she saw an armchair move across the floor.
This clip includes some genuine BBC footage of what happened....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 9:33:11 GMT -5
For skeptics like Roq Raider...there are (respected) US paranormal researches like Ed (now deceased) and Lorraine Warren who have racked years worth of 'cases' and 'evidence' to support their opinions. As far as I know, that property in Harrisville, Rhode Island still exists and petrified a family of 7. Respected by who, though? In woo circles, possibly, but objectively by anyone who rigorously tests their claims - I think not. Here is a quote from skepticblog about them: The whole thing can be seen here: www.skepticblog.org/2009/06/22/hunting-the-ghost-hunters/ Their wiki entry describes Ed W as "... a self-taught, self-proclaimed expert demonologist, author, and lecturer..." and Lorraine W as "a professed clairvoyant and a light trance medium who worked closely with her husband." I'm sorry but "respected researcher" does not belong anywhere near people professing to be "demonologist", "clairvoyant" or "medium" Their website at www.warrens.net/Warrens-Bio.html makes this claim: My emphasis there. Now, I would assert that all the unemphasised part is just complete nonsense, but I suppose can be subject to differing interpretations depending on your point of view and whether you accept the supernatural "explanation" for whatever was being talked about. However, for that last sentence, I'm calling complete bull - I would truly love to see their evidence for "spirits" visibly tearing a house apart, because I categorically don't believe that has ever happened or that whatever claims they are making will come anywhere near standing up to even the most superficial examination.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Dec 18, 2014 10:24:01 GMT -5
I feel that its the scientific community thats of the "closed mind" way of thought. That is indeed the general consensus, because whenever someone says "I saw a ghost", "I saw an alien spaceship", "I saw the yeti", "I can talk to the dead" or "the Virgin Mary appeared to me", scientists usually go "where's the evidence" and "there are simpler explanations to what you report". Like scientists are constantly trying to rain on everyone's parade. But what the general public is probably not aware of is that scientists rain on other scientists' parade all the time too, and not because of jealousy or professional interests. They do it because it is the job of a scientist to try to disprove any hypothesis. The principle on which science is built is that there is some kind of objective reality out there, and because no amount of challenges can change that reality, the more we criticize ideas, the more trust we can put in the ones that survive the ordeal. Yes, I agree. And that is a very reasonable way to act, too, because current scientific theories were arrived at after decades and sometimes centuries of work that was controlled, criticized, repeated independently, with experiments and measurements that anyone can arrive at, irrespective of their beliefs, cultural bias or preconceived ideas. For example, after thousands of years of observing that people fell ill and sometimes died, and after thousands of years of trying to explain disease by models that were not substantiated by the scientific method, we had made zero progress in health care. We still believed that diseases were caused by spirits, by curses, by God's will, by an imbalance between "humours", by a misalignment of invisible energy fields and other colourful but misguided principles. Then came the scientific method which, I hasten to say, did challenge the preconceived ideas of the most learned people of the day: and it generated the principle that disease was caused not by maledictions, but by extremely tiny life forms that could spread by contact. And because that theory was tested and shown to be true, it was rapidly adopted by all honest practitioners of medicine, and accordingly our life expectancy more than doubled and we no longer die of the plague, smallpox or syphilis. So when a TV actor shows up and peddles wristlets made of hazelwood and claims they can cure cancer, yes, scientists tend to say "that's nonsense" (to put it politely) before even checking if the claim is true. Not because they're close-minded, but because in that huge edifice of knowledge that was built by generations of people checking and double-checking facts and theories, there is no room for some surprise effect of hazelwood wristlets on cancer. This hostile reaction on the scientists' part does not need be the end of the story: if the hazelwood peddler can show that his trinkets do have an effect that can be measured, scientists will take notice. (They even study acupuncture seriously at the NIH, now). But for the peddler to defend his beliefs by simply saying "well, my hazelwood has helped me and these three other persons too so it works" just does not cut it. The burden of proof is on him, because his claim is hard to reconcile with everything else we know. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy"? I agree. There is doubtless a near infinity of things we do not understand about the universe, that we may never understand, and that we may not even be capable of understanding. Any scientist knows that. That is however no reason to accept at face value any argument made for the existence of something that is unverifiable; that way does not lie discovery, it is simply an invitation to error. Got to say, that's always been a favorite quote of mine, because it expresses the wonder that people have always felt when viewing the universe. As to the scientific community being the more close-minded, I would disagree. Almost every significant advancement in technology, medicine, etc, has come about because someone looked at something and said, "I don't know what that is or what's causing that, but let's see if we can figure it out". As soon as we look at something and say, "I know what that is", we stop trying to figure it out. We see something we can't explain and say "It's a ghost" or "It's an alien spaceship", then we stop thinking about all the other things it could be. Personally I think "unknown" is a much more exiciting prospect. By the way, I realize that some of this may seem to conflict with my oft-stated views on religion, since that involves accepting things that are by definition unprovable, but I never claimed to consistant.
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