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Post by tartanphantom on Jul 5, 2022 11:14:30 GMT -5
Mad probably ranks first with me. The SF and War books are among my all-time favs. But just about every new trend EC issue has things I enjoy EC had comparatively high editorial standards along with a publisher and editors who wanted to put out good books. As a result the books had consistently good stories and art, especially compared to much of the competition. The line also had an editorial personality, pretty rare in the pre-Stan days (though I think Charlie Biro may have tried to cultivate one.)
But, despite the great art, there's a sameness to the stories and--if you're not laughing along with the horror and suspense titles--they provide a pretty bleak world view.
So it's more like modern-day real life, then.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 5, 2022 11:40:01 GMT -5
I find it better to read them like they were published, 2 or 3 issues per week. Much better to savor them that way rather then a long binge
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 5, 2022 20:49:41 GMT -5
Mad and Panic are the only ones I have read, in their entirety. I've sampled the others. I have a soft spot for Aces High, since it was aviation stuff, and the war books. I need to look at Piracy; I have digital; but, haven't read those comics, yet.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,533
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Post by Confessor on Jul 6, 2022 5:42:02 GMT -5
Piracy is a very good, though short-lived, series.
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Post by commond on Jul 10, 2022 6:31:09 GMT -5
Which do you think is a more important work, Cerebus or Elfquest?
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Post by Cei-U! on Jul 10, 2022 6:33:39 GMT -5
Which do you think is a more important work, Cerebus or Elfquest? Dunno about "important" but I like Elfquest a whole lot more than I do Cerebus.
Cei-U! I summon the Wolfriders!
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jul 10, 2022 10:06:39 GMT -5
Of the two, I've only read a little of Elfquest, which I liked well enough, so I'd say that by default. However, I should add that I've never been interested in reading Cerebus.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 10, 2022 11:31:49 GMT -5
I read Cerebus up to Going Home; but, I just couldn't get through that first book of it. Mothers and Daughters was kind of the demarcation, for me. It started well, then gets bogged down and by Reads I am sick of Sim's penchant for nothing happening, the misogyny and just a general boredom, lack of laughs and lack of anything thoughtful. Guys was funny enough to kind of win me back, until the latter third to a half. I was pretty neutral to Rick, as I had mostly stopped caring.
I still haven't read Elfquest, though I got digital copies of the material, recently. I looked at some of the Starblaze books, in bookstores, back in college and after; but, it just looked a bit too cutesy, to me, on the surface and I never got the itch to read it, no matter how much praise it got. It wasn't my kind of fantasy, which tended more to Moorcock, Glen Cook's Black Company series, Fritz Leiber and The Horseclans series.
One of these days, I'll get around to it.
I think, historically, I would have to say Cerebus was more important, as it inspired others to try the self publishing route and was the most successful at doing it, on his terms. Elfquest had greater commercial appeal; but, WaRP Graphics also had a lot of business controversy and had to look for partners, after a while. So, from a business standpoint and an impact on other creators, I would give the nod to Cerebus. In terms of the story itself, I would say that Elfquest is probably the more important one; but, they are very different approaches and intentions.
I would say both were more important in the early 80s than they were in the late 80s or the 90s. In the 90s, both became sort of an afterthought, with Sim's attention seeking at least getting him press for a few years. However, when he finally reached #300, I barely recall a peep. He had a rather infamous interview with The AV Club, which did him no favors. He had already poisoned himself, to much of the industry, in the early to mid 90s; but, now he was alienating a whole new audience.
Sim does have a better legacy as a mentor to other creators. WaRP was publishing other works, but was then accused of trying to steal the material (especially Colleen Doran's A Distant Soil) and everyone ended up elsewhere. Aardvark-Vanaheim was publishing others; but, that kind of fell apart with Dave & Deni's marriage. Even after, though, Sim still offered a lot of advice and guidance to other self-publishers and provided a lot of exposure to their material, especially James Owen and Jeff Smith. The appearance of Bone, in Cerebus, really boosted Bone's profile and got the readership up enough to sustain it, until Smith had enough material to start doing the collections. The tours Sim organized, with those guys and people like Martin Wagner, brought a lot of attention to their works, through his bigger profile. During that time, Elfquest was moreits own little world and the Pinis had even started farming out the material, to Barry Blair and others.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2022 11:45:47 GMT -5
I read Cerebus up to Going Home; but, I just couldn't get through that first book of it. Mothers and Daughters was kind of the demarcation, for me. It started well, then gets bogged down and by Reads I am sick of Sim's penchant for nothing happening, the misogyny and just a general boredom, lack of laughs and lack of anything thoughtful. Guys was funny enough to kind of win me back, until the latter third to a half. I was pretty neutral to Rick, as I had mostly stopped caring. I still haven't read Elfquest, though I got digital copies of the material, recently. I looked at some of the Starblaze books, in bookstores, back in college and after; but, it just looked a bit too cutesy, to me, on the surface and I never got the itch to read it, no matter how much praise it got. It wasn't my kind of fantasy, which tended more to Moorcock, Glen Cook's Black Company series, Fritz Leiber and The Horseclans series. One of these days, I'll get around to it. I think, historically, I would have to say Cerebus was more important, as it inspired others to try the self publishing route and was the most successful at doing it, on his terms. Elfquest had greater commercial appeal; but, WaRP Graphics also had a lot of business controversy and had to look for partners, after a while. So, from a business standpoint and an impact on other creators, I would give the nod to Cerebus. In terms of the story itself, I would say that Elfquest is probably the more important one; but, they are very different approaches and intentions. I would say both were more important in the early 80s than they were in the late 80s or the 90s. In the 90s, both became sort of an afterthought, with Sim's attention seeking at least getting him press for a few years. However, when he finally reached #300, I barely recall a peep. He had a rather infamous interview with The AV Club, which did him no favors. He had already poisoned himself, to much of the industry, in the early to mid 90s; but, now he was alienating a whole new audience. Sim does have a better legacy as a mentor to other creators. WaRP was publishing other works, but was then accused of trying to steal the material (especially Colleen Doran's A Distant Soil) and everyone ended up elsewhere. Aardvark-Vanaheim was publishing others; but, that kind of fell apart with Dave & Deni's marriage. Even after, though, Sim still offered a lot of advice and guidance to other self-publishers and provided a lot of exposure to their material, especially James Owen and Jeff Smith. The appearance of Bone, in Cerebus, really boosted Bone's profile and got the readership up enough to sustain it, until Smith had enough material to start doing the collections. The tours Sim organized, with those guys and people like Martin Wagner, brought a lot of attention to their works, through his bigger profile. During that time, Elfquest was moreits own little world and the Pinis had even started farming out the material, to Barry Blair and others. the one thing I will add though is that Elfquest had some importance in raising the profile of female creators in the industry and convincing retailers and publishers of the viability of a female driven comics. Elfquest was also a pioneer of getting comics into bookstores and the album editions showed a lot of folks the viability of selling comics to a mass market audience in collected edition in bookstores, which was a huge piece of the foundation of the current trade paperback market. Yes, the Cerebus phonebooks contributed, but not the the extent of the Elfquest volumes, nor were they as ubiquitous as those Elfquest albums at a certain point in the late 80s and 90s in bookstores before Marvel or DC had even begun to ramp up any kind of collected edition programs. -M
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 10, 2022 14:41:41 GMT -5
I read Cerebus up to Going Home; but, I just couldn't get through that first book of it. Mothers and Daughters was kind of the demarcation, for me. It started well, then gets bogged down and by Reads I am sick of Sim's penchant for nothing happening, the misogyny and just a general boredom, lack of laughs and lack of anything thoughtful. Guys was funny enough to kind of win me back, until the latter third to a half. I was pretty neutral to Rick, as I had mostly stopped caring. I still haven't read Elfquest, though I got digital copies of the material, recently. I looked at some of the Starblaze books, in bookstores, back in college and after; but, it just looked a bit too cutesy, to me, on the surface and I never got the itch to read it, no matter how much praise it got. It wasn't my kind of fantasy, which tended more to Moorcock, Glen Cook's Black Company series, Fritz Leiber and The Horseclans series. One of these days, I'll get around to it. I think, historically, I would have to say Cerebus was more important, as it inspired others to try the self publishing route and was the most successful at doing it, on his terms. Elfquest had greater commercial appeal; but, WaRP Graphics also had a lot of business controversy and had to look for partners, after a while. So, from a business standpoint and an impact on other creators, I would give the nod to Cerebus. In terms of the story itself, I would say that Elfquest is probably the more important one; but, they are very different approaches and intentions. I would say both were more important in the early 80s than they were in the late 80s or the 90s. In the 90s, both became sort of an afterthought, with Sim's attention seeking at least getting him press for a few years. However, when he finally reached #300, I barely recall a peep. He had a rather infamous interview with The AV Club, which did him no favors. He had already poisoned himself, to much of the industry, in the early to mid 90s; but, now he was alienating a whole new audience. Sim does have a better legacy as a mentor to other creators. WaRP was publishing other works, but was then accused of trying to steal the material (especially Colleen Doran's A Distant Soil) and everyone ended up elsewhere. Aardvark-Vanaheim was publishing others; but, that kind of fell apart with Dave & Deni's marriage. Even after, though, Sim still offered a lot of advice and guidance to other self-publishers and provided a lot of exposure to their material, especially James Owen and Jeff Smith. The appearance of Bone, in Cerebus, really boosted Bone's profile and got the readership up enough to sustain it, until Smith had enough material to start doing the collections. The tours Sim organized, with those guys and people like Martin Wagner, brought a lot of attention to their works, through his bigger profile. During that time, Elfquest was moreits own little world and the Pinis had even started farming out the material, to Barry Blair and others. the one thing I will add though is that Elfquest had some importance in raising the profile of female creators in the industry and convincing retailers and publishers of the viability of a female driven comics. Elfquest was also a pioneer of getting comics into bookstores and the album editions showed a lot of folks the viability of selling comics to a mass market audience in collected edition in bookstores, which was a huge piece of the foundation of the current trade paperback market. Yes, the Cerebus phonebooks contributed, but not the the extent of the Elfquest volumes, nor were they as ubiquitous as those Elfquest albums at a certain point in the late 80s and 90s in bookstores before Marvel or DC had even begun to ramp up any kind of collected edition programs. -M I would agree with that. You could usually find a couple of the Starblaze Elfquest books in Waldenbooks or B Dalton and maybe Dark Knight or something similar. They also had rich color, for the time, to help them stand out. Since Walden shelved the few comic-related materials in science fiction & fantasy, it was right at home with the people buying Tolkien or Terry brooks or TSR. That also gave them way more exposure than comic shops, which weren't as widely spread, yet. I had trouble finding Cerebus or Elfquest in the wild, just to look at an issue, out of curiosity. My first exposure to their existence was an ad in the back of Jon Sable Freelance, alongside stuff for Frank Brunner portfolios and Jack Katz's First Kingdom. It was quite a while before I could get my hands on an issue of Cerebus, but I at least saw Elfquest at Waldenbooks. I was out of college and stationed in Charleston, in 1989, before I was able to look at an issue of Cerebus; but, it was deep in the middle of Church and State and I was clueless. Then, a local shop, The Green Dragon, had the phone books (they had one or two of the Swords of Cerebus volumes), well, the first and possibly the second, as I think they were the only ones out, yet. I then started getting them via Bud Plant and started reading Cerebus, regularly, during Mothers and Daughters.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 10, 2022 15:03:47 GMT -5
Which do you think is a more important work, Cerebus or Elfquest? It kind of depends on what you mean by more important. They’re both extremely important with regard to showing what’s possible for an independent small press publisher. Both were pretty pioneering in getting reprints out in collected editions, Cerebus with its “phone books” and Elfquest with its Starblaze collections. Sim’s accomplishment in self-publishing 300 issues of a critically acclaimed comic is definitely important. On the other hand, I think it’s fair to say that Elfquest attracted a number of readers, particularly with the collected editions, who would not have picked up more mainstream comics. They’re both very important in both similar and in different ways. I don’t think you can realistically quantify which is “more important.”
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Post by berkley2 on Jul 10, 2022 17:50:16 GMT -5
Bets EC - Mad by default, since that's the only one I know well. It's possible I'll change my mind if I ever delve into the various EC series more thoroughly - for example, if the SF series has a ton of Wally Wood and Al Williamson, that would sway my opinion.
Cerebus vs Elfquest: I'll go with Cerebus, even though I've read oly a few isolated issues. I haven't read any Elfquest and have never understood its appeal.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 10, 2022 18:13:58 GMT -5
Elfquest is decent "quest fantasy" material and has good characters, if you like that sort of thing; but, I was never that big on it. I can see the appeal, to Tolkien fans and those who like that kind of quest material. I am not in awe of Wendy Pini's art, though it is perfectly fine; it's just not the kind of thing that grabs my attention. I've seen some of her Elric conceptual drawings and liked those more.
Gerard Jones and Will Jacobs The Comic Book Heroes got me really interested in reading Cerebus, with their chapter on it and that was further amplified by Sim's interview on The Masters of Comic Book Art video, hosted by Harlan Ellison. It had enough images from the series and his description of the concept of High Society made me want to read it. It was more up my alley; plus, it was satirical, which also made it a bit more receptive than Elfquest. The early stuff had RE Howard pastiches; but, I was more of a fan of Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and Gray Mouser and Cerebus, as it developed the humor, had more elements of that, after a while.
I liked Cerebus when it was satirical and when Sim had something interesting to say. Jaka's Story wasn't a favorite sequence, nor Melmoth, as it felt like Sim was off on a sidetrack for too long. Mothers and Daughters seemed to be back on track, then it went off the rails, after the first book or so. I still kind of feel Sim peaked, with Church and State and more the first half of it than the second. Really, that first half of Cerebus, the 150 issues, is the only part that appeals to me. Reads was alienating, Guys recovered me a little, then lost me at the end. Rick had me back on the fence and book one of Going Home made me jump ship and I didn't pick up any of the rest of it, though I have the complete thing on digital.
High Society and Church & State are really the parts of Cerebus I would recommend to someone, with the first 25 issues as a set up. It is haphazard, at first, but finds its way by the time Lord Julius is introduced. Sim's timing and satirical eye was in great form, then.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 10, 2022 18:19:04 GMT -5
ps Here's the segment with Sim, talking about Cerebus, that had me hooked....
You can see the whole video there, with Will Eisner, Harvey Kurtzman, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko (voice only, reading an essay), Neal Adams, Berni Wrightson, Frank Miller, Moebius, Dave Sim and Art Spiegelman.
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Post by commond on Jul 10, 2022 20:33:33 GMT -5
When I was a fledgling comic book fan, Dave Sim occupied an almost hallowed place in the comic book industry, and Cerebus was regarded as one of the best works in the history of the medium. This was before Sim lost his mind with the infamous text piece in Cerebus #186. Nowadays, it seems as though Cerebus isn't nearly as well-regarded as it used to be. In CBR's Top 100 Comic Book Runs poll, it has steadily dropped from #25 in 2008 to #100 in 2020. Whether that's because the Cerebus trades have failed to attract a newer, younger audience, or because the younger generation are turned off by Sim's views, I'm not sure. It's been nearly 20 years since Cerebus finished, and Sim hasn't done a ton to add to his legacy since then, but I also feel like Sim was a big fish in a small pond in the late 80s when it came to self-publishing and creator-owned work. These days, there is far more creator-owned work out there than there was in the 80s and early 90s, and Cerebus no longer ranks head and shoulders over other titles as one of the few long-running self-published titles.
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