Confessor
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Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Jul 11, 2022 5:48:30 GMT -5
Which do you think is a more important work, Cerebus or Elfquest? As others have said, they're both important in terms of the growth of independent comics, but I would come down on the side of Elfquest as being the "most important", personally. Just by dint of it being co-created and drawn by a woman, at a time when women in the comics industry were still a rarity, and for having strong female leading characters in it. To me, Elfquest feels like a feminist comic. As for my completely subjective personal opinion, I enjoy the early Elfquest comics a whole lot more than Cerebus, which bored the pants off me.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 11, 2022 6:07:59 GMT -5
Which do you think is a more important work, Cerebus or Elfquest? As others have said, they're both important in terms of the growth of independent comics, but I would come down on the side of Elfquest as being the "most important", personally. Just by dint of it being co-created and drawn by a woman, at a time when women in the comics industry were still a rarity, and for having strong female leading characters in it. To me, Elfquest feels like a feminist comic. As for my completely subjective personal opinion, I enjoy the early Elfquest comics a whole lot more than Cerebus, which bored the pants off me.We are brothers from another mother. How did this book survive years of talking heads?
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Post by commond on Jul 11, 2022 8:57:00 GMT -5
I didn't realize Cerebus is so unpopular around these parts.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 9:52:43 GMT -5
I didn't realize Cerebus is so unpopular around these parts. There are some here who dislike it for sure. There are others who like it, and still others who are ambivalent to it. There was a long running Cerebus Reading Society here where a lot of folks did like it, but in all things internet, those who dislike something are more vocal than those who like it, which has a skewing effect on how well received things are. -M
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Post by badwolf on Jul 11, 2022 12:19:51 GMT -5
I've not read much Cerebus apart from a few shorts in Epic Illustrated (and that one Spawn issue), but I feel I'd appreciate it more as an adult, whereas I most certainly enjoyed Elfquest more as a teenager.
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Post by berkley on Jul 11, 2022 13:18:38 GMT -5
I didn't realize Cerebus is so unpopular around these parts. There are some here who dislike it for sure. There are others who like it, and still others who are ambivalent to it. There was a long running Cerebus Reading Society here where a lot of folks did like it, but in all things internet, those who dislike something are more vocal than those who like it, which has a skewing effect on how well received things are. -M
I like the few Cerebus issues I've read and have always meant to read the whole series or at least the first few volumes, which is more than I can say for Elfquest, which looks to me derivative, crudely drawn, and unattractive - no offence to fans of that series, just my immediate reaction from the few samples I've seen, which is basically a few cover images online.
I think Dave Sim's personal mental issues and penchant for misogynistic ramblings have turned off many potential readers, and understandably so. But I'm willing to give at least the earlier part of the series an honest try. I understand that there is a certain point after which those negative elements begin to come to the fore, so I'd probably try to read at least up to that point and then make a decision whether to continue or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 13:30:41 GMT -5
There are some here who dislike it for sure. There are others who like it, and still others who are ambivalent to it. There was a long running Cerebus Reading Society here where a lot of folks did like it, but in all things internet, those who dislike something are more vocal than those who like it, which has a skewing effect on how well received things are. -M I like the few Cerebus issues I've read and have always meant to read the whole series or at least the first few volumes, which is more than I can say for Elfquest, which looks to me derivative, crudely drawn, and unattractive - no offence to fans of that series, just my immediate reaction from the few samples I've seen, which is basically a few cover images online.
I think Dave Sim's personal mental issues and penchant for misogynistic ramblings have turned off many potential readers, and understandably so. But I'm willing to give at least the earlier part of the series an honest try. I understand that there is a certain point after which those negative elements begin to come to the fore, so I'd probably try to read at least up to that point and then make a decision whether to continue or not.
Most of the first phone book of Cerebus is derivative sword and sorcery pastiche, which to my modern eye reads like bad Mary Sue (or in this case more like Gary Stu) Red Sonja fan fiction, but there are some interesting nuggets buried deep within it. I understand things got better in later arcs, but that first phone book was such a slog I decided to take a break before delving deeper and now some two years later, I still haven't been inclined to go back to it. I intend someday, I am just not sure when that day will be. I've been told a few times to skip the first phone book, but I ignored the advice. In hindsight, maybe I should have. Elfquest however, takes a lot of the standard fantasy tropes, and stands them on their ear, and a lot of the tropes of modern fantasy take their cues from some of the things the Pinis did. Reading it at the time it probably felt a lot fresher than reading it later after much of what was new had become de rigeur tropes that made up the lay of the land in modern fantasy. But that's just my take on it. -M
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Post by berkley on Jul 11, 2022 18:16:28 GMT -5
I like the few Cerebus issues I've read and have always meant to read the whole series or at least the first few volumes, which is more than I can say for Elfquest, which looks to me derivative, crudely drawn, and unattractive - no offence to fans of that series, just my immediate reaction from the few samples I've seen, which is basically a few cover images online.
I think Dave Sim's personal mental issues and penchant for misogynistic ramblings have turned off many potential readers, and understandably so. But I'm willing to give at least the earlier part of the series an honest try. I understand that there is a certain point after which those negative elements begin to come to the fore, so I'd probably try to read at least up to that point and then make a decision whether to continue or not.
Most of the first phone book of Cerebus is derivative sword and sorcery pastiche, which to my modern eye reads like bad Mary Sue (or in this case more like Gary Stu) Red Sonja fan fiction, but there are some interesting nuggets buried deep within it. I understand things got better in later arcs, but that first phone book was such a slog I decided to take a break before delving deeper and now some two years later, I still haven't been inclined to go back to it. I intend someday, I am just not sure when that day will be. I've been told a few times to skip the first phone book, but I ignored the advice. In hindsight, maybe I should have. Elfquest however, takes a lot of the standard fantasy tropes, and stands them on their ear, and a lot of the tropes of modern fantasy take their cues from some of the things the Pinis did. Reading it at the time it probably felt a lot fresher than reading it later after much of what was new had become de rigeur tropes that made up the lay of the land in modern fantasy. But that's just my take on it. -M
I actually had that first Cerebus phonebook back in the early 1990s, now I think of it. I don't think I ever finished it so it's possible I had a similar reaction to yours, though I have the impression it was more of a parody than a pastiche. Can't really remember, to be honest. Maybe I'll take that advice to skip it when or if I ever get around to trying Cerebus again.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 11, 2022 18:27:03 GMT -5
Never read Cerebus but yes, it did begin as a funny animal parody of Conan. Within 2 years or so it evolved out of that genre. My problem with getting around to reading it now would be due to Dave Sim's personal history. His later rants against females is one stumbling block. But his questionable relationship with an underage girl, to me, is totally unforgiveable
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 11, 2022 21:09:21 GMT -5
I like the few Cerebus issues I've read and have always meant to read the whole series or at least the first few volumes, which is more than I can say for Elfquest, which looks to me derivative, crudely drawn, and unattractive - no offence to fans of that series, just my immediate reaction from the few samples I've seen, which is basically a few cover images online.
I think Dave Sim's personal mental issues and penchant for misogynistic ramblings have turned off many potential readers, and understandably so. But I'm willing to give at least the earlier part of the series an honest try. I understand that there is a certain point after which those negative elements begin to come to the fore, so I'd probably try to read at least up to that point and then make a decision whether to continue or not.
Most of the first phone book of Cerebus is derivative sword and sorcery pastiche, which to my modern eye reads like bad Mary Sue (or in this case more like Gary Stu) Red Sonja fan fiction, but there are some interesting nuggets buried deep within it. I understand things got better in later arcs, but that first phone book was such a slog I decided to take a break before delving deeper and now some two years later, I still haven't been inclined to go back to it. I intend someday, I am just not sure when that day will be. I've been told a few times to skip the first phone book, but I ignored the advice. In hindsight, maybe I should have. Elfquest however, takes a lot of the standard fantasy tropes, and stands them on their ear, and a lot of the tropes of modern fantasy take their cues from some of the things the Pinis did. Reading it at the time it probably felt a lot fresher than reading it later after much of what was new had become de rigeur tropes that made up the lay of the land in modern fantasy. But that's just my take on it. -M I would say the first couple of issues are pretty derivative, but, when Elrod enters the picture, and Red Sophia, it is pretty funny. The art is still kind of crude. It kind of stumbles a bit, for a few issues; but, once Lord Julius enters the picture (issue #14) I think Sim has figured out what he is doing and it moves up to a new level. I was fine with his adaptation of Beguiled, at the tail end of that. High Society is really where he is cooking, both in terms of satire and the art and his technical skill. His timing is fantastic, for the jokes, the characters are a step up from a lot of Cerebus the Barbarian, Gerhard is doing those beautiful backgrounds and he really captures the feel of the Marx Brothers classics, while also making some good commentary on politics, comic conventions, the status give people with no real skill, perception vs reality, class structure, and just slapstick, in general. The first half of Church and State carries that over well; but, the examination of society goes deeper, especially the more he gets into religion and religious organizations. When he starts getting more into the abstract, he starts losing me a bit and that second half has more upas and downs and things get more and more protracted, without advancing the story. Jaka's Story delves into her past and there are interesting elements and it looks beautiful; but, it also left me feeling unsatisfied and I also didn't feel like we got her perspective of things. I think Dave's marital issues and relationship problems, in general, didn't make him a good writer of female characters, other than as manipulators, like Astoria, or conquerors, like Cirin. Melmoth was an interesting story; but, it felt like something dumped into Cerebus because Sim was doing Cerebus, not because it had something to say about Cerebus' world or the character, himself. It seems like Sim wanted to do a graphic story of Oscar Wilde's last days, which is a fine subject; but, what did it do for Cerebeus' journey? He's pretty much out to lunch for the whole story. Mothers & Daughters Book 1: Flight starts out well and seems more on track with Church and State; with some good parody of the state of the comics market (as the Roach explodes with new universes and such, mocking Valiant, Ultraverse, Image, etc). Book 2: Women, is where he starts losing me, though the Roach stuff, as Swoon, is a pretty good satire of Sandman. Book 3: Reads, is where the rants are solidified into a POV. Flight and Women have criticisms, but they didn't seem so totally off balance, yet, to me, when I read it (and it's been a while, so I may be overly kind to it). Women starts showing that he is not presenting the Cirinists as extreme feminism, where there is no reasoned discussion, just attacks on all things male and Reads, through his alter ego, is where Sim solidifies the misogynistic ideas into a philosophy that I found abhorrent. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, by the end, wondering if he was just trying to stir @#$% up, like he was wont to do. Guys harkened back to the satire more and I felt like he got some of it out of his system, until the latter stages. His parodies of contemporaries, like Neil Gaiman, Eddie Campbell, James Owne and such were kind of fun. I wasn't overly critical of his portrayal of Thatcher, as part of the Cirinist group, as I have no love for that woman and I didn't think it was particularly mean-spirited, based on her actual record. Rick brought Jaka's husband back in and that's where I had confirmation that Sim really believed what he had spewed and I wasn't sure whether I wanted to continue. However, his reuniting with Jaka and the decision to head back home suggested maybe Sim was ready to build to the end and do something with these characters. Then, I got the first book and the long diversions into Hemingway and I just couldn't take more diversions from the central story, which seemed to take a back seat, again. Also, Sim was starting to draw out scenes, again. That's where I stopped reading. I wholeheartedly recommend High Society and at least Book 1 of Church and State. I would recommend Book 2 and Cerebus the Barbarian, with the proviso that Barbarian takes some time to find its footing and you may get the urge to skim, in parts. Church & State 2 gets more esoteric, than one and, also, if your personal religious sensibilities make it hard to separate your personal beliefs from Sim's satirical take and critiques, then you might take offense to some of it. Jaka's Storyis where I would say give it a try, if you like the other stuff; but, realize that Cerebus is not the prime mover of the story. Same for Melmoth; but I recommend it as itself, rather than a part of Cerebus. Mothers & Daughters is where I would say you really need to be okat with all of the previous material before you want to venture into it. Guys I would recommend more. Rick and Going Home I would say is more for completists and if you want to see it until the end. The scary thing, to me, is reading some of Sim's worst rants is rather like encountering these "incel" types, as it gets pretty irrational and self-pitying, and has much in common with the whole fascist mindset, where some scapegoat is to blame for all of your ills. Sim messed around with psychoactive narcotics and I have to think that added to any mental health issues that might have already been there, not to mention relationship issues.
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Post by berkley on Jul 11, 2022 21:22:15 GMT -5
Never read Cerebus but yes, it did begin as a funny animal parody of Conan. Within 2 years or so it evolved out of that genre. My problem with getting around to reading it now would be due to Dave Sim's personal history. His later rants against females is one stumbling block. But his questionable relationship with an underage girl, to me, is totally unforgiveable
Didn't know about that last item.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 22:09:13 GMT -5
This is probably completely baseless question, but I wondered when reading the Red Sophia stuff in that first volume and this question regarding both Cerebus and Elfquest reminded me of it. Both books were self-published and Cerebus #1 was Dec '77 and Fantasy Quarterly #1 was 1978. Prior to Elfquest, Wendy Pini was quite well known in comics circles as a Red SOnja cosplayer, even appearing on national TV on the Mike Douglas show in that role at one point.
Was there any bad blood or rivalry between the Pinis and Sim? Would there have been any subtext aimed at Pini or those who were aware of her Sonja connections in those early Red Sophia parodies (especially in light of Sim's later rants about women)? The question occurred to me when I was reading the first phonebook and wound up watching the Doulas clip for something about Phil Seuling I was looking into, but I dismissed it as probably coincidental and didn't look into it really, but this question juxtaposing the two books brought it to mind again, so I was wondering if anyone had seen anything about their relationship (if any) or anything said in the fan press about the other party in zines or semipro zines, at that time?
Just idle curiosity about a thing that made me go hmmm...
-M
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 12, 2022 0:02:15 GMT -5
This is probably completely baseless question, but I wondered when reading the Red Sophia stuff in that first volume and this question regarding both Cerebus and Elfquest reminded me of it. Both books were self-published and Cerebus #1 was Dec '77 and Fantasy Quarterly #1 was 1978. Prior to Elfquest, Wendy Pini was quite well known in comics circles as a Red SOnja cosplayer, even appearing on national TV on the Mike Douglas show in that role at one point. Was there any bad blood or rivalry between the Pinis and Sim? Would there have been any subtext aimed at Pini or those who were aware of her Sonja connections in those early Red Sophia parodies (especially in light of Sim's later rants about women)? The question occurred to me when I was reading the first phonebook and wound up watching the Doulas clip for something about Phil Seuling I was looking into, but I dismissed it as probably coincidental and didn't look into it really, but this question juxtaposing the two books brought it to mind again, so I was wondering if anyone had seen anything about their relationship (if any) or anything said in the fan press about the other party in zines or semipro zines, at that time? Just idle curiosity about a thing that made me go hmmm... -M I was reading just about all the major fanzines during the late 70's and don't recall any mentions of inter-play or rivalry between Dave Sim or the Pinis. If I recall correctly, The Pinis were closely tied with artist Frank Thorne who illustrated many of those early Marvel Red Sonja stories and they appeared together at conventions in the NY-NJ area. Sims, from Canada, hung with a different set. I never heard of any references between the 2 groups as well
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Post by commond on Jul 12, 2022 8:37:21 GMT -5
I don't think Dave had a problem with the Pinis. The character Regency Elf is partially based on Wendy Pini, and Dave did a short story in Cerebus #52 where Cerebus met Cutter and Skywise. Dave says the Pinis weren't amused, but that's likely Dave being Dave. According to Richard Pini, they only ever had disagreements about art and the business of publishing.
The Heritage Auctions site has this interesting tidbit on a piece of original Cerebus artwork from 1981: 'Dave Sim - Cerebus #29, page 20 Original Art (Aardvark-Vanaheim, 1981). Cerebus enjoys a spirited game of wickets with the Regency Elf in this titillating match. Dave Sim has signed and inscribed the page in its final panel, "For Richard and Wendy -- best wishes from Dave Sim and Cerebus (I never said, 'You're not so hot')." The image area of this page is 10" x 15", and the art is in Excellent condition. From the collection of Richard and Wendy Pini. Richard says: "Ah, Cerebus. Warp Graphics' relationship to Aardvark-Vanaheim goes back a long way, was as up-and-down as a roller-coaster, and is full of anecdotes. One concerns the Regency Elf, which was a roundabout Dave Sim tip of the hat to Wendy and Elfquest, which is how we got this page."'
Parodying mainstream comics continued to be a thing in series after the Conan pastiche ended. Sim is still parodying mainstream comics with his most recent Cerebus stories.
New readers may steer clear of Cerebus because of Dave's misogynism, but it's important to remember that before the misogyny thing blew up, a significant portion of his readers were female. Right before his views came to the forefront, he had created one of the most acclaimed graphic novels of the decade in Jaka's Story, and written a story about a dying gay man at a time when stories about HIV and AIDs were hugely prevalent in the media. That was partly why people were so upset. It felt like a betrayal to many readers.
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Post by commond on Jul 18, 2022 21:25:19 GMT -5
Next question: Dave Sim criticized First Comics in the Comics Book Journal for putting a new creative team on American Flaag! after Chaykin left the book. Do you think it was a bad idea for First to keep publishing its books after the original creators had left?
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