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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2022 16:07:10 GMT -5
One thing I like about wrestling are the giants. From Andre the Giant years ago to rookie Omos today, I love to see an unstoppable (or near-unstoppable) giant dominate his opponents. It gives them a real mystique and intrigue. You become excited by the possibility of seeing them defeated.
But what happens once they are defeated? How do you maintain their mystique? Do they lose that mystique once they are defeated? You can hardly have them be unstoppable forever, but once they are beaten, it can feel like their mystique has been tainted. That little bit of vulnerability takes away the magic, just a tad. One can still enjoy seeing them fight, of course, but it never feels quite the same.
Sorry, this isn’t the wrestling thread, I know…
Comics are filled with near-unstoppable opponents, whether we’re talking about Galactus, Juggernaut, Destroyer or Dormammu. Their first appearances showcased their seemingly unstoppable nature - and I guess there was intrigue in seeing how the superheroes would defeat them. They had that mystique that I find comparable with the aforementioned wrestling giants. But once they tasted defeat, that mystique was dented just a little.
It’s unavoidable, I guess. No near-unstoppable foe can remain undefeated forever. That would get boring. It’d be predictable. And we tune in to wrestling or pick up literature so as to see a bad guy defeated. Their eventual defeat is inevitable and satisfying. But can any near-unstoppable character ever have quite the same mystique that they had when they were undefeated?
(I felt the same as a kid when Mike Tyson was knocked out for the first time; he never seemed to have the same aura again after that first defeat)
This isn’t a million miles away from the topic I did about omnipotent characters, but hopefully different enough to warrant a discussion of its own. Can ANY near-unstoppable character ever retain the mystique they had after they taste defeat?
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 4, 2022 17:42:54 GMT -5
Near unbeatable foes only retained their air of mystique if they were presented as being an overwhelming force for the hero (in said hero's POV)...but it turns out the villain was barely breaking a sweat, so he has other, more threatening levels to reach.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 4, 2022 17:59:28 GMT -5
I think it works if the unstoppable foe is vanquished in a rational way, without cheating, and without falling for the same trick too often. Juggernaut sinking into concrete was a nice move that didn't take away from his mystique; ditto the Molecule Man being talked into not acting like a villain anymore.
I also like stories where the unstoppable foe can't be bothered, as tarkintino pointed out. Juggernaut trouncing Colossus in a bar but not overdoing it, just wanting to finish his drink, was a believable scene.
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Post by berkley on Jul 4, 2022 18:19:52 GMT -5
Stop having them beaten over and over again?
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Post by commond on Jul 4, 2022 18:47:56 GMT -5
You don't have to beat Galactus as such. You just have to stop him from devouring your planet. Likewise, Dormammu. All you need to do is trap him in his own dimension. If the writer can figure out new and interesting ways to accomplish those things then the stories are viable. The obvious solution to the problem you posed is to use Galactus the same way the promoters used Andre -- sparingly. The other approach is to have it seem like the heroes have won but throw in a twist like they did with Vecna in Stranger Things. The last time I remember reading Galactus stories was when I was reading Silver Surfer in the late 80s-early 90s. I'm sure there have been numerous retcons and developments since then. I do think having Galactus as a regularly occurring character in a title puts the writer in a bit of a pickle, but as I recall he wasn't a villain in that series.
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 4, 2022 22:20:51 GMT -5
Use 'em once, maybe twice if you really feel the need for a rematch, then never again. (Galactus and Doomsday, I'm looking at y'all.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2022 5:23:03 GMT -5
Great comments, guys.
Cleverness seems to be the key at times, e.g. Juggernaut ending up in the concrete. If I remember Dormammu’s first appearance, didn’t Strange ‘defeat’ him by assisting him against the Mindless Ones, forcing Dormammu’s honour to owe a debt to Strange?
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Post by mistermets on Jul 5, 2022 10:08:10 GMT -5
This is a good question.
A big part of is to avoid overexposing the near-unbeatable foe. It should be a big deal when they show up.
An example of a company overexposing a bad guy is Carnage. He was seeded for a while, and then introduced in a three part story. He returned in a massive crossover event. So far so good.
Then he was defeated within the pages of a single annual. And he was an afterthought in a crossover that introduced new bad guys.
It shouldn't be routine.
Another one is Galactus, and John Byrne helped restore his mystique in Fantastic Four #242-244. That's a case where changes in how comics were read might've played a role. With reader turnover, it's not a big deal if Galactus shows up every two years. But then when you had more people collecting back issues, fans sticking around longer and Marvel simultaneously publishing reprints and new adventures, readers started to realize that this world-threatening menace had fought the Fantastic Four five times, and Thor twice.
The main thing this has in common is to be intentional, to use this villain with purpose, and with an understanding of the long-term goals, rather than cranking out something new because the villain's last appearance sold pretty well.
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Post by Commander Benson on Jul 5, 2022 11:32:51 GMT -5
Nine years ago, in a discussion about the Composite Superman on the Captain Comics site, I touched on this topic. I coined the term "the Galactus Syndrome".
You know what I mean. The first time Galactus appeared, he had the Fantastic Four shaking down to the soles of their black booties. It was only through the Watcher's intervention and a genuine sweat-pumps-on-line tactic by Mr. Fantastic that enabled the Earth to survive the experience. The F.F. knew they had gotten lucky. Real lucky.
Then, Galactus appears, again. And the F.F. manage to stave him off a second time. O.K., we'll buy that; it was a good enough plot to do so.
But when the Big G kept returning and kept getting beaten away, then you have to start wondering just how all-powerful a threat is he, really? At the least, there's no longer that spine-freezing sense of "oh %$#@# we're screwed!" whenever he pops up.
By contrast, the Composite Superman showed up only twice (in the Silver Age), and neither time did Superman and Batman actually beat him; rather, they simply managed to keep from getting killed by him. This maintained the C.S.'s cachet as a truly foreboding threat.
No doubt Our Two Favorite Heroes felt a chill down their spines whenever they got reminded of him.
That's how you maintain the mystique of a near-unbeatable foe. The hero doesn't defeat him---he just manages to survive the encounter.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 5, 2022 12:52:07 GMT -5
Great comments, guys. Cleverness seems to be the key at times, e.g. Juggernaut ending up in the concrete. If I remember Dormammu’s first appearance, didn’t Strange ‘defeat’ him by assisting him against the Mindless Ones, forcing Dormammu’s honour to owe a debt to Strange? He did. Strange asked that he never attack Earth in exchange, and for several years it is Dormammu who had to find a way to circumvent that caveat! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2022 12:58:24 GMT -5
Thanks. Has Dormammu ever reached Earth?
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Post by Cei-U! on Jul 5, 2022 13:39:41 GMT -5
Thanks. Has Dormammu ever reached Earth? He got a foot in the door in Dr. Strange's first series, then again in Marvel Feature #2 (second Defenders story), but didn't succeed until Giant-Size Avengers #4, wherein he captured Mother Earth (Gaea) and used the heat of Earth's core to replenish his strength. He may've done it again, but my knowledge of Marvel lore after 1986 is scanty.
Cei-U! I summon the big fat fiery head!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2022 13:55:18 GMT -5
Thanks. Well, that scares me. Definitely not a being I want on this earth.
I read a lot of Marvel UK reprints as a kid, the last time I really saw him, he was going toe-to-toe with Eternity.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 6, 2022 22:49:40 GMT -5
You don't have to beat Galactus as such. You just have to stop him from devouring your planet. Likewise, Dormammu. All you need to do is trap him in his own dimension. If the writer can figure out new and interesting ways to accomplish those things then the stories are viable. So basically treat them like Mr. Mxyzptlk without the derby...  |
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Post by berkley on Jul 7, 2022 6:07:18 GMT -5
Great comments, guys. Cleverness seems to be the key at times, e.g. Juggernaut ending up in the concrete. If I remember Dormammu’s first appearance, didn’t Strange ‘defeat’ him by assisting him against the Mindless Ones, forcing Dormammu’s honour to owe a debt to Strange? He did. Strange asked that he never attack Earth in exchange, and for several years it is Dormammu who had to find a way to circumvent that caveat! Yes, and that was a much more fitting resolution to the Strange vs Dormammu storyline than the later "Pincers of Power" one, which suffers from all the same problems as the Darkseid vs Superman fistfights I always criticise. And in this case, it was the original creators, Ditko and Lee, who got it wrong! (IMO, of course). |
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