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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2022 22:41:42 GMT -5
This was proposed by comics writer Kieron Gillen on twitter...
So how about-what five stories (exactly five, no cheating and including more) would you choose to introduce someone to either the MU or the DCU-both what you love about it and to set them up to have foundational knowledge of that particular shared universe...a primer of sorts for someone who wants to dive in but has limited time and wants maximum enjoyment and comprehension of the universe from the limited exposure they will have.
as for what makes a story, let's keep it to what would fit in a single (non-omnibus sized) trade collection
For me...
not necessarily what I consider the best, but definite favorites of mine chosen through the lens of what I think would give the reader a foundational starting point to explore those fictional universes and have some clue how to navigate it
The Marvel Universe
#1 Marvels by Busiek & Ross-a great way to sum up all the major foundational ideas of the MU in a succinct and relatable way
#2 The Quest for Eternity by Ditko & Lee-amazing story and sets up the cosmic side of the MU pretty well
#3 The Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Sage by Claremont & Byrne (X-Men mythos 101)
#4 The Celestial Madonna Saga (Englehart & misc.) Marvel plays a lot with time travel and this one covers all the various different aspects of that plus explores the Avengers place in the MU, including a lot of the familiar faces like Cap, Iron Man, Thor et. al
#5 The Coming of the Black Panther (FF 52-54; Kirby, Lee; peak FF period, intro of Black Panther & Wakanda plus the Inhumans demonstrating the Kirby super-science aspects of the MU and the sheer creative power that propelled the MU forward in its early years
last one was a tough choice, I felt I had to pick between Spidey and the FF here (though Hulk got a brief consideration) since they were the flagship titles for Marvel through their foundational years. I definitely feel I am neglecting the street level vibe of Marvel (Spidey/DD etc.) but I think the larger cosmic stuff sets the tone for MU as a whole and the street level stuff is easier to get into without a primer, so I leaned into the cosmic in my choices).
The DC Universe
#1 New Frontier by Darwyn Cooke-a great overview of the DC mythos and vibe is a self-contained yet sprawling story covering several aspects of the DCU even if it is technically an Elseworlds tale, it is perhaps the best I can think of to provide the sense of wonder and majesty the DCU resonates with in a single package
#2 The Pact by Jack Kirby-sets up the dynamic of the Fourth World which informs a lot of the later development of the DCU, is cosmology and the prominence of the Fourth World mythos rises to
#3 Crisis on Earth One/Crisis on Earth Two (JLA #21-22 by Fox & Sekowsky), establishes the DC multiverse concept, the JLA, the JSA and several of the key players in the DCU
#4 Batman Year One by Miller & Mazzuchelli pretty much establishes the modern sensibilities of the Batman that every subsequent take has either drawn on or reacted to
#5 Batman Superman Wonder Woman: The Trinity by Matt Wagner-establishes the dynamic between the big 3 in a self-contained enjoyable story allowing a reader to go to solo stories of any of them with some level of familiarity
there are lots of aspects of the DCU missing in my primer picks. I wanted to get a solo Supes and WW story in there, but there wasn't room with 5 picks, and part of understanding the DCU today is accepting the prominence of the Batman mythos, so I included a Batman story. All the fringe DC gets left out, except was Darwyn manages to fit into New Frontier, and things like Titans and Legion are out in the cold unfortunately, butt here were things that were more quintessential to the core of the DCU in my estimation.
Tough choices on both sides.
So what do others think (and again, no copping out by picking more than 5 for either, that takes the challenge out of this. The point of the thought exercise is to make those touch decisions and to prioritize your favorites in terms of how crucial they are to providing that foundational understanding of the shared universe.
-M
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Post by berkley on Aug 17, 2022 0:36:18 GMT -5
Specifying the DCU and the MU as opposed to Marvel Comics and DC Comics makes this a sticky question for me: for example, I don't think the DCU or the MU have made good use of Kirby's solo characters and concepts so I don't think I'd pick any Eternals or New Gods comics since fro me they don't say anything much about the shared universes that plucked a few individual elements from them and mostly ignored the rest. To a lesser degree I'd probably feel silimarly about such personal favourites as Doctor Strange, MoKF, ToD, etc.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 17, 2022 0:56:47 GMT -5
I love the idea of this assignment, but I also struggle with it because I firmly believe that, when DC and Marvel are at their absolute best, they are telling great stories in individual titles and not sweeping across their respective shared universes. I could tell you my picks for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, X-Men, Fantastic Four, or Incredible Hulk stories that would introduce newcomers to those properties and what makes them amazing, but beyond the obvious choiceses of New Frontier and Marvels, I'm not sure either company has had many all-that memorable universe-wide stories told. Certainly not much that I'm passionate about discussing.
That being said, these half-hearted ideas did cross my mind:
Marvel - The original Thanos/Magus saga. Well developed story told across a multitude of books and involving a large sampling of the MU.
DC - Armageddon 2001. It was a snapshot limited to the DC titles in existence in 1991, but the first issue really made them feel like icons and legends, and the storyline was an original one, even if the ending was a total disaster.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 1:17:06 GMT -5
I love the idea of this assignment, but I also struggle with it because I firmly believe that, when DC and Marvel are at their absolute best, they are telling great stories in individual titles and not sweeping across the shared universe. I could tell you the best Batman, Superman,Wonder Woman, X-Men, Fantastic Four, or Incredible Hulk stories that would introduce newcomers to those properties and what makees them amazing, but beyond the obvious choiceses of New Frontier and Marvels, I'm not sure either company has had many all-that memorable universe-wide stories told. Certainly not much that I'm passionate about discussing. I struggled too, but I think the point of Gillen's ask was two-fold- 1) people are drawn to good stories so which stories did you enjoy? and 2) the market reality now is that the product is the shared universe and not individual books or characters, and someone coming in fresh who wants to create a foundation to interact with all the stories in the universe may need some kind of primer to get them started-good stories that provide cornerstones to build on with future story interactions, so what stories fall into that Venn diagram intersection of stuff that you enjoy that provides the kind of cornerstones that prep readers for what they may encounter in their further explorations? So my starting point was what are the quintessential things that make the MU the MU and the DCU the DCU that a reader would need to be familiar with to explore those universes? And then what are my favorite stories that feature those things. It didn't need to be company wide cross-over stories (in fact I don't usually enjoy those and side from Marvels and New Frontier I immediately dismissed all of those. For DC it was things like multiple earths, the cosmology and tragedy of the Fourth World that informs so much of the modern DCU landscape, the prominence of the Dark Knight, the central role of the Trinity, and just the iconic/mythic grandeur of the heroes and the wide variety of genres encompassed in the DCU, so that informed my choices as I went through the stories I enjoyed. I wanted to give a nod to legacy/generational aspects of DC (like the Titans) but didn't have a spot, so the JLA/JSA x-over had to do double duty with that and the multiple earths. For Marvel it was a little more difficult as I leaned towards the mythic scope of parts of Marvel in my preferences, but there is a street level reality of the MU as well. But for me the cornerstones were Kirby's sheer creative zeitgeist and the sci-fi elements in it, the cosmic grandeur of the MU, the wild anything goes nature embodied by the time travel shenanigans of so many stories (and now in the movies as well), and acknowledging the influence the X-books have had on shaping all the other wings of the MU since the Claremont era. So I picked my favorite stories based on that. If I had a 6th pick, I would have brought something street level into the mix (Spidey master planner, Miller DD, or something) but I leaned on the street level persona of Phil Sheldon in Marvels to cover that as I didn't have enough spots to include that flavor of Marvel. But the most interesting aspect of something like this to me is to see how each person decides what is quintessential as well as what stories the lean on to demonstrate those choices. Each person's approach is as interesting as their choices. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 5:20:14 GMT -5
It’ll be tough for me as far as DC is concerned, given the countless reboots. I mean, I could recommend DC tales, but if they are now apocryphal, what does that mean as far as a recommendation now is concerned? But it’s a great thought experiment, so I’ll play ball!
The DCU
1.) The Untold Legend of the Batman. Condenses some fascinating Bat-History into a tight, solid and entertaining adventure. While it may not mean much canon-wise now, I wonder, might it encourage a new reader to seek out Batman tales, pre-Crisis and post-Crisis?
2.) Man of Steel. I still consider Byrne’s MOS to be the definitive origin. Again, what is canon now? I have no idea. Some aspects might be dated (as happens with ANY tale), but for me, I believe it captures the humanity and altruism of Superman. It’s character-driven, and I feel it’d make more of a lasting impression on a new reader than if you gave them a reprint of 3 random pre-Crisis tales.
3.) The Power of Shazam. Written and drawn by Jerry Ordway. Enough said. Maybe. But, no, I think this is a good introduction to the characters for those who might not necessarily find the quirky pre-Crisis stuff appealing (I do, but some might not).
4.) Batman: Year One. Feels odd to recommend this in addition to Untold Legend, but while Untold covers a lot of Bat-History, Year: One shows the genesis.
5.) Legends. Just the mini-series, not the tie-ins. A wider look at the DCU, some thought-provoking questions about the nature of superheroics, plus some pretty solid action.
My choices are about showcasing as much of the DCU as possible - the heavy hitters at least - while also conveying some historical context where possible. Might seem like a Superman-centric/Batman-centric list, but hopefully the stories give a snapshot of the DCU.
The MU
1.) The Kree-Skrull War. I’d question whether this is the greatest Avengers arc (some may claim it is). I don’t think it is, but I certainly think that it’s an engaging, well-drawn, well-crafted adventure.
2.) The Galactus Trilogy. What more can one say? Well, I should post something. It’s as epic and cosmic-driven as it gets, and showcases some tremendous art.
3.) The Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga. The reasons why were best explained by mrp.
4.) The Punisher (1986 mini-series). My first three choices are grand and cosmic in scope, but as part of this thought experiment, I feel the need to convey the street level aspects of the MU, a reminder that it’s not all planet-eating beings and alien races.
5.) Contest of Champions (1982). My previous four choices haven’t showcased Spider-Man, Hulk, Cap and others. I feel the need to showcase them. So Contest of Champions is it, which I think is a better series than Secret Wars. It’s also not a deep storyline, merely a rip-roaring adventure which gives us countless Marvel heroes.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 17, 2022 7:48:02 GMT -5
Wow.. mine are SO different from MRP, but actually similar to Driver
1) First Galactus Story
2) Gwen Stacy Dying
3) Kree-Skrull War
4) Armor Wars
5) Stern's Masters of EVil story
I know that leaves out the X-Men, but I think it gets everything else.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 8:41:37 GMT -5
I’m going to focus on my Marvel list:
1) Fantastic Four: The World's Greatest Comic Magazine 12 issues series from 2001/2002. Not just a brilliant love letter to Silver Age FF, but the entire Marvel universe of that era. This would be my top pick to answer the original question.
2) Earth X: A dystopian future story, but filled not only with lots of flashbacks, but commentary on the significance of those events. A highly intelligent retrospective in addition to an interesting story all its own.
3) "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man" from ASM #248: One of the most heart-felt stories to me of all time, it covers a lot of Spidey's history and his decision towards the end captures the true goodness of Peter.
4) "Days of Future Past": from X-Men #141-142. This topped even the Phoenix stories to me.
5) Avengers #4 (Captain America Returns): I feel like I need at least one 60's era original story included versus flashback/reference, and though so many to choose from, I think this historic moment makes for a nice example.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 8:50:44 GMT -5
DC:
1) Superman: Strength 3-issue mini
2) Showcase 100 This was a big crazy story featuring everyone who had appeared in Showcase
3) The Suicide Squad arc where they're on Apokolips, issues 34-36
4) Justice League: Incarnations
5) The Justice 12-issue miniseries
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Post by majestic on Aug 17, 2022 10:00:45 GMT -5
JLA/Avengers. It features all the major characters from both companies from different eras. It showcases the differences between the 2 companies. It has amazing Perez art.
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Post by Dizzy D on Aug 17, 2022 10:00:51 GMT -5
Setting up some rules for myself and I'm sticking to Marvel for now:
Most stories require a lot of context to get and if I want to use them as a primer for a new reader than'll try to avoid those.
Picking 5 stories from Marvel: I need to include Spider-Man, he's Marvel most popular character by a mile. I also need to include the Fantastic Four, they are the backbone on which most of the rest is build. Avengers and X-Men also make sense as both have been the most popular franchise for the Marvel Universe at various times.
Leaving me with a very contested fifth spot: Hulk would make sense as he's become so engrained in pop-culture even outside of comics. Dr. Strange is a favourite of mine. Namor and Jim Hammond are the first characters and should probably get a nod. I could use the Defenders and get all of them in there. Daredevil has been a solid series over the years throughout various creative teams. I generally enjoy the smaller titles more, but they don't seem to fit the assignment.
So still working on that.
Picks so far:
1. Spider-Man: If This Be My Destiny...! (The Amazing Spider-Man #31-33) It's a Lee&Ditko one and it's also a story that sums up Spider-Man the best for me. The stakes are personal and grounded.
2. Fantastic Four: Behold... Galactus (Fantastic Four #48-50) It's a Lee&Kirby one, it will represent the cosmic part of Marvel which I won't have in my other stories with the fate of the world in the balance. A nice counterpart to the small and personal story of Spider-Man above.
3. X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills. I pick this one over Phoenix Saga (which you really need a lot of background and connection to the characters to really get). For a new reader, I think this one sums up what the X-Men are and do the best.
4. Avengers... well, this gets hard for me as I don't have read a lot of Avengers. I've read both Under Siege and Ultron Unlimited (and various other things) and I think one of those would be the easiest to access the idea of the Avengers. I'm going with Under Siege (Avengers #270-277)
5. Fifth spot remains the toughest. I'm going with Marvels for now. It incorporates a lot of the Golden Age and Silver Age stories and being told from an outsider's point of view, it works well for a new reader. I do wanted something weird like Howard the Duck or so in here, but five titles is not a lot. I was also thinking of Daredevil: Man Without Fear, which is a good entry level story.
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Post by earl on Aug 17, 2022 18:30:01 GMT -5
I really cannot come up with a list off top of my head, but one that came to mind for DC is the one shot 'Planetary/Batman Night on Earth'. That is a pretty good introduction to the range of Batman stories that are out there in DC comics.
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Post by earl on Aug 17, 2022 18:41:13 GMT -5
The next one that came to mind is the Avengers/Defenders War. That one covers a bunch of the characters and how they interact and ties in Loki/Dormammu.
Obviously the Thanos story is a huge one, but to really tell it, you got to put it all together and could really up to the end of Infinity Gauntlet. That's like what...50+ issues to get the early appearances and setup to the Infinity Gauntlet?
It's like the same with DC and Crisis on Infinite Earths...that one really does cover pretty much it all but it's not exactly new reader friendly at all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 18:56:39 GMT -5
The next one that came to mind is the Avengers/Defenders War. That one covers a bunch of the characters and how they interact and ties in Loki/Dormammu. Obviously the Thanos story is a huge one, but to really tell it, you got to put it all together and could really up to the end of Infinity Gauntlet. That's like what...50+ issues to get the early appearances and setup to the Infinity Gauntlet? It's like the same with DC and Crisis on Infinite Earths...that one really does cover pretty much it all but it's not exactly new reader friendly at all. I think if you are looking for a smaller story that serves as a primer for the Thanos story and gives readers the cornerstones they need to explore that story, the 2 part cross-over in Avengers Annual 7 and Marvel Two-in-One Annual #2 fills that role excellently. It's one of the stories I considered for my 5. -M |
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Post by earl on Aug 17, 2022 19:04:48 GMT -5
Yeah that works, but it kind of leads off how they got that point - that is kind of like the conclusion of the first epic. I suppose that is how I read it too back in the day, as I never read all of the earlier Warlock/Captain Marvel until a bit later.
It kind of just hit me that probably the best primer for a bunch of DC stuff would be Darwyn Cooke's "DC: The New Frontier". One might read that one THEN read Crisis.
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 17, 2022 21:01:18 GMT -5
My problem with this is many of the great stories I love rely on a knowledge of the characters and stories that came before. So they would not make a good intro to the Universes. And many of the introductory tales are far from the best.
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