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Post by zaku on Mar 9, 2023 10:05:18 GMT -5
I have to say that "Illusion of change" is a paradigm used only in the Superhero genre (if we are talking about comics).
For all the other genres we have:
1) No changes at all (i.e. quasi-anthological like Tintin)
2) Real changes (well, everything else?)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2023 13:05:05 GMT -5
I have to say that "Illusion of change" is a paradigm used only in the Superhero genre (if we are talking about comics). For all the other genres we have: 1) No changes at all (i.e. quasi-anthological like Tintin) 2) Real changes (well, everything else?) In my opinion, one advantage that the likes of wrestling and TV shows/films has over comics is that real people age, forcing change. If people didn’t age, then Hulk Hogan would probably still be lobbying for a main event run in WWE. If people didn’t age, soap operas would be rehashing the same plot from 30, 40, 50 or even 60 years ago. I enjoyed Mark Harmon’s run on NCIS (not that I’ve seen every episode), but when age/life choices required him to depart, it does allow for some change, whether it be a younger character stepping up to the plate, or a new character entirely. I wouldn’t be without comics, but when characters don’t age, it does mean the status quo can remain for all eternity, which might be frustrating to some. Mind you, even with ageing, it’s not perfect: Judge Dredd’s adventures take place in real time, but while he is older, and has been patrolling Mega-City One for decades, it seems that others, like Judge Anderson and Judge Hershey, haven’t aged much at all. |
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Post by coinilius on Mar 9, 2023 14:39:54 GMT -5
I just think if you’re gonna keep repeating things, what’s the incentive to buy new stuff? I believe the original run of The Amazing Spider-Man lasted 441 issues, from 1963 until 1999. If 440 issues were all the same as the first issue, why would I buy the trades? Why not just acquire the first issue and re-read that once a week? Yeah, like I said it depends. Not sure how I feel about Peter marrying MJ and her becoming America's top model, but I like that Peter and Flash eventually became friends. Still, did Peter/Spider-Man really change? He was still the same character in essence. I feel like Spider-Man is a great example for the whole ‘illusion of change’ thing - because Spider-Man started as a 15 year old teenager, his character and stats quo pretty much had to go through changes as they slowly allowed the character to age (sometimes slower than other times). You can see Peter graduate high school, go to college, see his relationships with his peers change as he goes along - I started reading Spider-Man in the late 80’s, early 90’s so Peter marrying MJ was just part of the series for me, I hated all the efforts they went through to remove it later on. |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 9, 2023 20:12:18 GMT -5
Yeah, like I said it depends. Not sure how I feel about Peter marrying MJ and her becoming America's top model, but I like that Peter and Flash eventually became friends. Still, did Peter/Spider-Man really change? He was still the same character in essence. I feel like Spider-Man is a great example for the whole ‘illusion of change’ thing - because Spider-Man started as a 15 year old teenager, his character and stats quo pretty much had to go through changes as they slowly allowed the character to age (sometimes slower than other times). You can see Peter graduate high school, go to college, see his relationships with his peers change as he goes along - I started reading Spider-Man in the late 80’s, early 90’s so Peter marrying MJ was just part of the series for me, I hated all the efforts they went through to remove it later on. I don't have a problem with Peter getting older. It's a little harder to have people be very young forever than to tell infinite stories of an adult. And aside from becoming less nerdy (as young people often do when they get out of high school) he was still the same old "bad luck" Peter. At least while I was reading him. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,200 
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Post by Confessor on Mar 10, 2023 5:15:39 GMT -5
I have to say that "Illusion of change" is a paradigm used only in the Superhero genre (if we are talking about comics). For all the other genres we have: 1) No changes at all (i.e. quasi-anthological like Tintin) 2) Real changes (well, everything else?) There were lots of changes in Tintin across the whole series of 24 stories. Everything from Tintin's job, his home and, by the last unfinished volume, even possibly his marital status changed. And of course, the supporting cast grew and changed too. Bad example. |
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Post by zaku on Mar 10, 2023 5:39:58 GMT -5
I have to say that "Illusion of change" is a paradigm used only in the Superhero genre (if we are talking about comics). For all the other genres we have: 1) No changes at all (i.e. quasi-anthological like Tintin) 2) Real changes (well, everything else?) There were lots of changes in Tintin across the whole series of 24 stories. Everything from Tintin's job, his home and, by the last unfinished volume, even possibly his marital status changed. And of course, the supporting cast grew and changed too. Bad example. My fault! |
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Post by crazyoldhermit on May 13, 2023 19:42:40 GMT -5
I love change.
The problem is change is a risk.
Good change can create a series with a mythic arc spanning decades. One bad change can derail that arc forever.
In my mind Spider-Man is the perfect example. Decades of subtle and not-so-subtle changes, creating a sense of movement through time and growth. Then someone decided he was actually a clone, and it doesn't matter how good some of the stories have been since then, the pooch is screwed and there's no taking it back.
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Post by chadwilliam on May 14, 2023 23:45:28 GMT -5
It probably helps when change is implemented so gradually that it isn't may not even be recognized until after the fact.
No one would confuse Joe Shuster's Superman for Curt Swan's and yet when you consider how successive artists never strayed too radically from the one who preceded them there is a gradual progression which I imagine few can detect from issue to issue yet with a finishing point which makes you realize that things have moved in a strange new direction without you noticing at the time.
Formulaic writing is a term not generally employed when trying to speak positively about the creative process and yet where would things be if the Siegel and Shuster's, Simon and Kirby's, Lee's and Kirby's, etc. hadn't hit upon a method which they recognized the value of and stuck with it? I think that changes made while operating within that framework work (as Cei-U already pointed out) while changes which are initiated with the destruction or inversion of that framework generally don't (most reboots, in my opinion at any rate).
So I think people are fine with change so long as the basic formula hasn't been sweetened too much.
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Post by amerigo178 on Feb 24, 2024 17:01:45 GMT -5
Change to me, is on a case by case basis. Take for instance DC’s Trinity, Superman&Wonder Woman wouldn’t change that much. Their supporting casts must change they are only human. While Superman is an alien he ages slowly. Wonder Woman is immortal. Now Batman, would have the most change. Being human he will age and die. He becomes legacy hero like the Phantom. First is Bruce, then Dick, then Jason etc.
Ha Tom
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