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Post by Hoosier X on May 16, 2014 0:06:04 GMT -5
After glancing through the comics I picked as contenders for best issue of FF between #111 and #137, I decided on #130.
It was a tough choice! That whole storyline where Ben can turn into the Thing at will but it makes him crazy, that is a very compelling, dramatic story, a nice twist on Reed's continual attempts to cure Ben. And then the Hulk shows up!
And then the Galactus story in #120 to #123 is so well structured. A powerful figure calling himself Gabriel shows up and seems to be the actual archangel Gabriel, signaling the end of the Earth. But he's not really. He's the herald for Galactus! And I love Reed threatening the world devourer with the contents of his own ship!
However, reading these stories again, I'm kind of struck by the weak endings on both narratives. They're not bad, but a bit unsatisfying. The berserk Thing storyline leads right into the Over-Mind saga, and that's not the FF at its best. The Galactus story ends with Reed sending Galactus into the Negative Zone and Reed playing word games to save the Silver Surfer.
So that leaves the Thundra storyline, and I think #130 is the strongest. I love Thundra's concern for Ben (who she's very tender with because she considers him the weaker gender). She has dialogue like "The little one is unharmed" and "I have said there will be no killing of men or children!" I also like the way the Frightful Four are depicted here, and there scheme to take over the Baxter Building.
(But, oh, that Fradon/Sinnott art on #133!)
I didn't specifically say anything about the Buscema/Sinnott art because it's FANTASTIC across the board!
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Post by tolworthy on May 16, 2014 0:33:18 GMT -5
Tolworthy, I have read through your FF site a few times now and I really enjoy it. Thanks! I'm really glad some people find it useful. It's never finished - I think it must be hard to follow, e.g. I son't show covers or issue summaries (I should, one day). But I keep finding more things to add. The latest parts are the evidence for Sue being Johnny's mother (in the notes to FF 292), parallels between Byrne's run and Ronald Reagan's presidency (see notes to FF 267), and why they don't use the time machine more often (notes to FF 272 I think). So mush FF, so little time! I thought I'd single out my favorite issue from this run (FF #111 to #137) and maybe open up some discussion on the Buscema era of Fantastic Four. It was harder than I thought, but glancing through the volume, I've narrowed it down to #111 (The Thing goes berserk!), #112 (The Hulk fights the berserk Thing), #121 (the truth about Gabriel), #123 (Reed takes over Galactus' ship), #129 (first Thundra), #130 (The Frightful Four take over the Baxter Building) and #133 (The Thing fights Thundra at Shea Stadium). I find it REALLY hard to choose favourite issues (except for those that have nostalgia value) because they're all so amazing. To me. I tend to focus on those that other people think are rubbish, because I love finding new things I missed before. For example... Do you follow FF1by1.com? They're coming to the end of reviewing the Buscema era now. I love the site because they point out all the "bad" stuff. E.g. their latest review is of FF 137, and they give it only 2 out of 10! But if you look at all the parts they don't understand, those are the best bits! Like, they don't see how the 1950s issues fits with the previous stories. Yet for me, the big structure is the strongest part! The Thundra story naturally leads to the Gideon story, which naturally leads to the 1950s story and then the Miracle Man and then the climax: Annihilus. The unifying theme is about Reed and Franklin. There is so much happening in these Buscema issues. For me, each and every one is a classic.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 16, 2014 1:53:44 GMT -5
Do you follow FF1by1.com? They're coming to the end of reviewing the Buscema era now. I love the site because they point out all the "bad" stuff. E.g. their latest review is of FF 137, and they give it only 2 out of 10! A fellow obsessive-compulsive rating-maniac. I don't agree with the particular rates, but it's good to see I'm not alone in using the decimal system, or in giving really low scores.
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Post by tolworthy on May 16, 2014 2:55:18 GMT -5
After glancing through the comics I picked as contenders for best issue of FF between #111 and #137, I decided on #130. An excellent choice. From the Steranko cover to the historic bombshell ending, through all the fun and personality in between: an epic. However, reading these stories again, I'm kind of struck by the weak endings on both narratives. They're not bad, but a bit unsatisfying. The berserk Thing storyline leads right into the Over-Mind saga, and that's not the FF at its best. The Galactus story ends with Reed sending Galactus into the Negative Zone and Reed playing word games to save the Silver Surfer. Those weak endings have always impressed me: it's a theme unique to this period. Everything is deliberately left hanging, uncertain, in a void, reflecting the crisis going on in the team. Buscema's run covered the break up of the marriage, from Sue's first conscious decision that they need tome apart, to when Reed zaps Franklin. I think it was important to have such a polished, classical superhero artist and such fun stories to balance the uncertainty and despair underneath. I love this era, it was unique in the whole history of the FF: both the brightest, boldest simplest battles and the most tragic, personal emotional crisis at the same time. BTW, ff1by1's claim that these issues (the 130s) are not connected has led me to look closer at how they are connected. It's fascinating. The 12 issues from 130 to 141, from the separation to zapping Franklin, all take place in 1973 (or the few days before). The date, January 1st 1973, is a big deal in issue 133, the Ramona Fraydon issue. Looking back it's the mirror image of ten years earlier, 1963, Marvel's most positive year when everything went right. The six stories of those 12 months - Thundra defeats Ben, Johnny loses Crystal, Reed loses Sue, Reed misses his chance, twice, and Reed zaps Franklin - are all stages in the decline, representing the men's weaknesses just as 1963 represented their strengths. Each story naturally leads to the next. For example, the Shaper of Worlds does not just appear out of nowhere, as FF1by1 claims: the previous issue has Reed dreaming of Sue, and this attracts the Shaper (he's attracted to the power of the suit that was designed to extract Reed and Sue and Franklin's DNA). The Shaper was almost certainly looking for Reed, and would have made his dreams come true, but instead Reed uncharacteristically just left, so the Shaper found the only person he could, Slugger, who still had radiation from that suit. That is just one of many details. it all fits. It's all one big story: Reed's decline in 1973. Eventually the women save the day (note how Alicia bookends the 1973 stories)- foreshadowed by Thundra's show of power. It's layers within layers, more complex than anything Chrios Claremont ever devised. I love it.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 21, 2014 0:18:53 GMT -5
So how about all the meetings of The Fantastic Four and the Hulk?
My favorite (and it's in my Top Three of all comics ever) is the meeting in Fantastic Four #25 and #26.
But there's also Fantastic Four #12, #111 to #112, and #166 to #167. (That last one is a special one to me because #166 was my second issue of the FF. Reed is holding the Hulk, Sue has a force-field around the Hulk, cutting off his air, and Reed tells Ben to knock the Hulk out! Ben feels bad because the Hulk was helpless, so he sets him free and they take off across the country together! And land on the St. Louis arch! And do on. The long exposure to the gamma rays turns Ben human again! But that's another story ...)
Today I read a Hulk/FF story that I never read before, in Hulk #122 in The Essential Hulk, Volume #3. I've read a lot of Hulk stories from this era, but I had missed this one. (They're actually the Fantastic Five because this is the era when Crystal was hanging around.)
Such nice Trimpe art! It looks great when he inks himself. Reed has figured out a cure for Bruce Banner's condition of turning into a Hulk and so he's put a notice in all the newspapers (and probably radio and television) for Bruce to come for treatment. So Banner shows up at the Baxter Building and runs into a security guard who didn't get the bulletin. So when the guard hassles him by asking to wait while he checks with the FF, Banner turns into the Hulk, climbs the elevator shaft and mixes it up with the FF. The Thing and the Hulk fight for two pages (it's not so great as Thing/Hulk fights go) but it's Reed who subdues the Hulk with a sonic blaster, one of those deus ex machine things he always has laying around.
The story ends with the Hulk unconscious on the sidewalk as the FF get ready to administer the cure. (Which happens in the first 5 pages of the next issue.)
I really like this period for the Hulk. He's just had one of his best fight with the Leader ever and met the Sub-Mariner, and he's moving into some more great Leader battles and some other nifty stories with the Abomination, Jarella, Doc Sampson and whatever. So this story is OK, but it kind of suffers in comparison with other Hulk stories and also in comparison with other Hulk/FF fights. It's just a little lacking. (It takes forever for Banner to get to the Baxter Building, for one thing, so the fight with the FF is kinda truncated.) Not a bad issue, it's actually pretty good, but it's sort of a low point in an era that was often great.
(If you haven't guessed, I'm a big fan of the Hulk in the Herb Trimpe era. I think I prefer it to the FF, just a little, but the FF (and Spider-Man) are even more amazing because the great periods for them are probably twice as long as the great period for the Hulk.)
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Post by tolworthy on May 21, 2014 1:53:12 GMT -5
I love that Hulk era. As you know, I am basically a Fantastic Four fan, and I'm very critical of other comics, but I make exceptions for some runs. Probably my favourite non-FF Marvel run is the Trimpe/Englehart Hulk. Every issue a classic. That is how comics should be! Enough crazy fun to satisfy the most OCD kid, yet surprisingly realistic and so creative. Have they ever been collected outside of Essentials? It saddens me to see what the comic business does to people: like Kirby said, the comics biz will break your heart. Last time I heard of Trimpe he could not get work, and was retraining to be a teacher I think. His crime? Trying to please his bosses. In the 1990s he tried to copy the then-popular atrocious Image style, resulting in some appalling/hilarious art. So everybody remembers old Herb as the guy who can't draw. That is a great crime for the guy who saved the Hulk from obscurity and pushed him into the top spot. It's kind of like Gene Colan, in his last ComicGeekSpeak interview he says how he just could not get work in comics., But the Internet saved him: there are still legions of fans who recognise quality even if editors don't. and Colan was able to spend his final days creating well paying commissions. He was quite chocked up with gratitude when he spoke about it. Anyhow, back to the FF Englehart's Hulk run is a big part of why I side with Englehart on his FF work. When he says the later issues were dross because of editorial interference I believe him. But the twelve issues where he was able to more or less write what he wanted? Those are golden. And they include MY favourite Hulk-Thing battle: FF issue 320. The one where Ben beats the Hulk. In my view this issue is historically incredibly important. As I interpret it, the following issue, FF 321, was the last one to be "in continuity": the entire run from 1 to 321 forms a single story, and after that it's a different team. FF320 is where Ben, for 27 years the underdog, finally wins. It's beautiful stuff. I also have a real soft spot for that other issue you mention, FF 166. Normally the Hulk wins because he does not hold back. Ben usually holds back in fights, afraid of accidentally killing somebody. But in FF166 he doesn't hold back. When Ben doesn't hold back he can floor the Hulk with a single punch. 'Nuff said.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 21, 2014 9:02:36 GMT -5
That is some nice art by Perez and Colletta.
Wait. WHAT?!?!?
It's so easy to forget that Colletta did a lot of good comics.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 21, 2014 9:17:37 GMT -5
Maybe because he did a bunch of not very good ones.
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Post by tolworthy on May 21, 2014 9:20:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I find it hilarious that when Mr Obsessively Detailed pencils first joined Marvel, they gave him Mr Eraser as his inker. (Disclosure: while Perez is my favorite comics artist, I also have a lot of respect for Colletta. I mentioned how comics caused grief to artists like Kirby, Trimpe and Colan. I have to respect Colletta for understanding the system and making it work in his favour. It's not as if he was untalented or forced himself onto books.)
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Post by Hoosier X on May 21, 2014 9:57:14 GMT -5
I read FF #166 fairly recently after a long period of time where I hadn't looked at it and I was turning the pages and proceeding merrily along and basking in the memories of a favorite comic from the 1970s when I was first reading comics ...
When I suddenly recognized the inking style: Vince Colletta!
When I first read it, I had no idea I was supposed to not like Colletta. He worked on a lot of comics back then. And in the mid-1970s, he was still pretty good. I frequently come across Colletta's work from that era, and it's solid work and sometimes it goes beyond solid into great inking. (There's a Shanna splash page where she's fighting a crocodile and Colletta's inking Ross Andru, and it's amazing!) It happens so often that I'm not surprised anymore.
You get into the late 1970s and it's a different story. But that doesn't change the high quality of a lot of his earlier work. It makes a lot of the knee-jerk "Collette sucks!" comments look very ill-informed.
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Post by Fan of Bronze on May 23, 2014 6:41:13 GMT -5
...snip...As you know, I am basically a Fantastic Four fan, and I'm very critical of other comics, but I make exceptions for some runs. Probably my favourite non-FF Marvel run is the Trimpe/Englehart Hulk. Every issue a classic. That is how comics should be! Enough crazy fun to satisfy the most OCD kid, yet surprisingly realistic and so creative. Have they ever been collected outside of Essentials? ...snip.... My introduction to Englehart's Hulk was an early 1980s treasury edition. It had 80 pages, so probably reprinted about four issues. Great stuff! After reading that, I collected Englehart's entire Hulk run.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 29, 2014 0:03:19 GMT -5
I haven't been reading Fantastic Four because I have Hulk reprints and JLA reprints and Aquaman reprints from the library, and they are keeping me busy. But I don't like seeing this thread sitting fallow with no activity, so I'll see if I can revive it with something I was thinking about when we were talking about Dr. Doom.
It's the rest of the FF villains. After Dr. Doom, one of the greatest comic book villains of them all, the Fantastic Four's rogues gallery sometimes seems a little weak. Oh, yes, there are some very powerful entities here, and some of them are interesting. But I don't think very many of them work very well against other heroes, and they also suffer if they are used too often. It's not like the collection of villains for Spider-Man or Batman or the Flash where there are a number of villains who can come back time and time again without getting stale. (Without getting too stale, I should say about some of them.)
Like Galactus. How many times can he almost eat the Earth?
Or the Mole Man. I can hardly believe how often he pops up in the early Marvels - FF #1, #22 and #23, Tales to Astonish, the Avengers. (More than once.)
The Puppet-Master is OK. He shows up a lot, but it kind of makes sense because of the Alicia connection, but he is quite a one-note character.
Diablo? He should be a lot more interesting. (His appearance in the Buscema era is OK.) (He's one of my least favorite characters from the Kirby era.)
One major exception is The Frightful Four. I think they are great, and I like the variety provided by that rotating fourth spot, and by the way the members can attack as a group, or as individuals (like the Wizard in #81, or Sandman in #61, I think).
What do you think? I haven't mentioned the Skrulls or Miracle Man or the Thinker or Klaw. Or Kurggo or the Molecule Man or Rama-Tut or Toomazooma.
Or Spinnerette!
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2014 12:23:03 GMT -5
So I recently purchased Hero for Hire #9 (as seen in the purchases thread) and...wow! The Faceless One! This story is like right after Astonishing Tales #2! Mind = blown.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 31, 2014 13:50:34 GMT -5
So I recently purchased Hero for Hire #9 (as seen in the purchases thread) and...wow! The Faceless One! This story is like right after Astonishing Tales #2! Mind = blown. Hero for Hire #9 is an unknown Bronze Age classic! I first heard about it just a few years ago in interview with Steve Englehart in (I think) Alter Ego, and it sounded great! So I ordered it online and was just blown away by it. How is this story such a well-kept secret? Why isn't everybody going on about this one and telling everybody to read it?
(I like to think Luke Cage has a list by the cash register that's labeled "No Checks!" and Victor von Doom is second on the list, right under J. Jonah Jameson.)
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Post by Action Ace on May 31, 2014 21:08:53 GMT -5
So I recently purchased Hero for Hire #9 (as seen in the purchases thread) and...wow! The Faceless One! This story is like right after Astonishing Tales #2! Mind = blown. Hero for Hire #9 is an unknown Bronze Age classic! I first heard about it just a few years ago in interview with Steve Englehart in (I think) Alter Ego, and it sounded great! So I ordered it online and was just blown away by it. How is this story such a well-kept secret? Why isn't everybody going on about this one and telling everybody to read it?
(I like to think Luke Cage has a list by the cash register that's labeled "No Checks!" and Victor von Doom is second on the list, right under J. Jonah Jameson.)
I couldn't resist.
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