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Post by zaku on Apr 1, 2023 7:55:58 GMT -5
I've just found this story where an amnesic Superman travels back to WW2 and fights Nazis! So all my bizarre standards are satisfied!!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2023 7:57:47 GMT -5
When I do a poll here, nothing frustrates me more than to see a 50/50 result. I want to know what people are thinking, and it’s good to see both sides of the argument. It appears that more people are in favour of Superboy not being part of the mythos, Byrne’s reboot or not. I honestly have no idea what current DC canon is. 30,000 DC reboots since 1986 will do that to a guy. Same with Supergirl. Or Batman’s dad. I feel I can’t answer questions from non-fans if they ask about those things. That doesn’t happen often, occasionally someone who has only come to DC via the DCEU might ask me something (one friend picked up Byrne’s MOS). But I feel I can answer questions about Marvel without having to think about it. The official DC policy on the matter, after Doomsday Clock and Dark Knights Metal, is that everything happened. So in theory, the original (pre-Crisis) Superboy's stories happend on Earth-1985. In the current Dc continuity (from Wikipedia) following Infinite Crisis, Superman did not begin his public superhero career until adulthood. However, as a teenager he joined the Legion of Super-Heroes, and used the name "Superboy" while visiting the 31st century. Thus, most of Kal-El's pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths stories with the Legion were once again considered canonical. In addition, Clark wore his Superboy outfit when he works as a clandestine superhero in and around Smallville. Ah, I see. Well, 2025 is two years away. Is DC planning another Crisis event to mark 40 years since COIE? I hope not…
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 1, 2023 8:01:41 GMT -5
Superboy was fun.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 1, 2023 8:51:43 GMT -5
The DC war books were said to be Earth-1, so the Nazis were getting their butts kicked by Sgt Rock, the Haunted Tank, M'lle Marie, the Losers, Gravedigger, Unknown Soldier, Creature Commandos, etc. So, the few mystery men who were retroactively assigned to Earth-1 weren't needed. For the most part, they kept the war characters in their own world, except for team-up books, like Brave & The Bold and DC Comics Presents. My personal feeling is that superheroes should only fight super-Nazis, because regular soldiers can handle a regular battlefield. I was never a big reader of the war books back in the day (I have since read quite a few of them mostly via Showcase Presents volumes) but now I’m thinking that they never really showed any action on the Eastern Front.
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Post by zaku on Apr 1, 2023 12:52:04 GMT -5
That story reflects Roy Thomas' intention to eventually reveal that all of the Earth-One heroes (except The shadow) active in the 1940s emigrated from Earth-Two, a revelation made irrelevant by the Crisis on Infinite Earths. The problem with that plan was that at least two of those heroes were related to other heroes native to E! (Larry "Air Wave" Jordan to Hal "Green Lantern" Jordan and Jim "Guardian" Harper to Roy "Speedy" Harper). Maybe it's just as well the Crisis spoiled Roy's plans, as it spared us the undoubtedly convoluted continuity fixes Mr. T would've concocted to explain those discrepancies. Cei-U! I summon the close call! (Headcanon): when they emigrated, they took the place of their E1 doppelgangers who were already dead! Or, if they weren't, well, it's a problem with an easy solution... Joking aside, I know that they devised "Earth-2 migrants" thing to explain some inconsistencies, but in the context of the stories why people did it? And how?
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 1, 2023 16:51:42 GMT -5
The DC war books were said to be Earth-1, so the Nazis were getting their butts kicked by Sgt Rock, the Haunted Tank, M'lle Marie, the Losers, Gravedigger, Unknown Soldier, Creature Commandos, etc. So, the few mystery men who were retroactively assigned to Earth-1 weren't needed. For the most part, they kept the war characters in their own world, except for team-up books, like Brave & The Bold and DC Comics Presents. My personal feeling is that superheroes should only fight super-Nazis, because regular soldiers can handle a regular battlefield. I was never a big reader of the war books back in the day (I have since read quite a few of them mostly via Showcase Presents volumes) but now I’m thinking that they never really showed any action on the Eastern Front. Not much, no, largely because their stars were mostly American soldiers, who would not have been on the Russian Front. At the same time, I suspect Kanigher and other writers might not have been as up on events on that front, compared to Europe of the South Pacific. I do recall reading a story that I THINK was in a DC war comic, set at the Russian front, with a pair of German soldiers, who are freezing, one has gloves, the other doesn't. They are bickering about it, then a pilot, who was shot down comes across them and shelters with them. He is wearing insulated flight coveralls and gloves and boots. One of the two soldiers kills the other than either tries to kill the pilot and he shoots him or ends up before a firing squad. I think. It's probably been 40 years since I read that story. It might have been in a Charlton comic, but I read way more DC war comics and Sgt Fury than Fightin' Army and Fightin' Marines, in those days. Plus, I seem to recall more of the DC style than the usual Charlton suspects (other than Sam Glanzman,who did work for both). Garth Ennis Enemy Ace 2-part series, set in WW2, has Hans Von Hammer recruited to rejoin the Luftwaffe and his squadron flies on the Eastern Front. At one point he is shot down over Stalingrad or another besieged city and witness evidence of what the Germans were doing to the populace. Early in the series he berates the Nazis, to a friend, but he convinces him that flying is his first love and they need pilots for the Eastern Front. After he is shot down, Von Hammer is determined to surrender to the Americans or British, though he destroys his squadron's Me-262s, when Sgt Rock and Easy Company come to capture their airfield. I still don't buy the premise of persuading Von Hammer to fly, whatsoever, for a Nazi-controlled Luftwaffe; but, other than that contrivance, it's a damn good series. Christian Alamy and Chris Weston did the first issue and Russ Heath did art on the second. They might have had a story or two as a back up or in one of the anthologies.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2023 4:53:51 GMT -5
Earlier in this thread, one person asked if there are any good Superboy stories that don’t involve the Legion. I named some. Others did. It’s all subjective, of course. Haven’t read the latest Back Issue yet, but I thought I’d share a couple of pages: I haven’t necessarily read all of those issues, but I have enjoyed a lot of solo Superboy stories.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,867
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Post by shaxper on Apr 28, 2023 6:14:05 GMT -5
When folks refer to "Byrne's Superman reboot" or discuss whether Byrne's reboot made the right choices, I feel compelled to point out that Byrne deserves little of the blame and/or credit. By the time he came aboard the Superman titles, the reboot was already almost completely planned out. Credit/blame goes to Frank Miller, Steve Gerber, Andy Helfer, and Marv Wolfman. If anything, Byrne seemed to resist their choices and worked hard to bring back all the ridiculous Silver Age shenanigans the reboot had sought to remove.
As for whether or not Superboy should have been included, I happen to love classic Superboy, but what I love most about it is its wholesomeness and sense of stability. In a world of fear and chaos, wholesomeness and stability are pure escapist fantasy. In the 1980s, though, America had a strong illusion/delusion of both wholesomeness and stability. Thus, the escapist fantasies of the period ran in the opposite direction, involving dark anti-heroes and grim deconstruction.
Superboy was wrong for the 1980s, but man could we use him now!
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Post by zaku on Apr 28, 2023 6:50:14 GMT -5
When folks refer to "Byrne's Superman reboot" or discuss whether Byrne's reboot made the right choices, I feel compelled to point out that Byrne deserves little of the blame and/or credit. By the time he came aboard the Superman titles, the reboot was already almost completely planned out. Credit/blame goes to Frank Miller, Steve Gerber, Andy Helfer, and Marv Wolfman. If anything, Byrne seemed to resist their choices and worked hard to bring back all the ridiculous Silver Age shenanigans the reboot had sought to remove. As for whether or not Superboy should have been included, I happen to love classic Superboy, but what I love most about it is its wholesomeness and sense of stability. In a world of fear and chaos, wholesomeness and stability are pure escapist fantasy. In the 1980s, though, America had a strong illusion/delusion of both wholesomeness and stability. Thus, the escapist fantasies of the period ran in the opposite direction, involving dark anti-heroes and grim deconstruction. Superboy was wrong for the 1980s, but man could we use him now! If it's any consolation, after Doomsday Clock Superboy's back in continuity!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2023 6:55:32 GMT -5
In the 1980s, though, America had a strong illusion/delusion of both wholesomeness and stability. I grew up largely in the 80's, including a number of my elementary school years and most of high school. It wasn't so much an illusion/delusion, the aftermath of the Viet Nam war and equal rights activities that had created so much turbulence all through the 70's had given way to new found optimism. But "innocence" was still quite lost, this was not a reversion to the Ike years by any means. There was an edge to life back then underlying the seemingly shinier times of the decade. I certainly felt it, we were all being raised by boomers who were facing the realities of a world very different from their parents and I think carried a perpetual tension of a time gone by that they had largely revolted against, but never quite found full stability thereafter. Nuclear tensions were slightly tamer, but still ever present. While my classes did not have shelter in places drills or things of that nature, Russia was always in the back of our minds. There's a reason why movies like WarGames were still so relevant back then, sure we were enterained by it on one hand, but it also touched on a very real lack of stability that haunted us in the background. We were also the first generation fully raised in the aftermath of the civil rights revolution, and again coming out of the storming times of the 70's, many of us I think never had a reference period in our life when this was not an important topic. The upbeat tone this in some ways took on in the 80's was again not that we believed we had reached stability or that we had delusions regarding the issues that still existed, but rather an approach that we could continue to change the world with a marked positivity. Also, the Big 80's may have seemed like one big party, but I would not remotely say we considered ourselves terribly wholesome. Our "coming of age" teen movies present a somewhat fair depiction of the MTV generation. We were a rather naughty bunch despite our more clean cut appearances. And our parents during that time were certainly no better.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,867
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Post by shaxper on Apr 28, 2023 7:09:57 GMT -5
In the 1980s, though, America had a strong illusion/delusion of both wholesomeness and stability. I grew up largely in the 80's, including a number of my elementary school years and most of high school. I was there too, but I experienced a somewhat different 1980s. In hindsight, I feel like Rocky IV best captured the tone of the era I knew: simplistic, egotistic, mildly concerned with both the Cold War and racial tensions and yet naively convinced it had a grasp on both. The future was so bright, we had to wear shades, and while the "coming of age" films and MTV videos played to a generation in rebellion, what they were rebelling against wasn't injustice or even a political machine; they were rebelling agains the clean-cut wholesomeness that America was attempting to embrace again, failing to note the irony that it was being brought about by Jerry Falwells and Jim Bakkers. They were fighting for the right to party and little else. Let's not forget that two of the biggest hits of the decade: Born in The USA and Material Girl, were embraced unironically by the MTV generation, even though they'd been intended as social critiques.
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Post by zaku on Apr 28, 2023 7:15:30 GMT -5
When folks refer to "Byrne's Superman reboot" or discuss whether Byrne's reboot made the right choices, I feel compelled to point out that Byrne deserves little of the blame and/or credit. By the time he came aboard the Superman titles, the reboot was already almost completely planned out. Credit/blame goes to Frank Miller, Steve Gerber, Andy Helfer, and Marv Wolfman. If anything, Byrne seemed to resist their choices and worked hard to bring back all the ridiculous Silver Age shenanigans the reboot had sought to remove. As for whether or not Superboy should have been included, I happen to love classic Superboy, but what I love most about it is its wholesomeness and sense of stability. In a world of fear and chaos, wholesomeness and stability are pure escapist fantasy. In the 1980s, though, America had a strong illusion/delusion of both wholesomeness and stability. Thus, the escapist fantasies of the period ran in the opposite direction, involving dark anti-heroes and grim deconstruction. Superboy was wrong for the 1980s, but man could we use him now! If it's any consolation, after Doomsday Clock Superboy's back in continuity! (I already said that "EVERYTHING IS IN CONTINUITY NOW. EVERTYTHING". ? )
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 28, 2023 7:17:31 GMT -5
It looks like I missed this poll somehow, but I would have vote Yes. Oh well.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 28, 2023 7:23:27 GMT -5
When folks refer to "Byrne's Superman reboot" or discuss whether Byrne's reboot made the right choices, I feel compelled to point out that Byrne deserves little of the blame and/or credit. By the time he came aboard the Superman titles, the reboot was already almost completely planned out. Credit/blame goes to Frank Miller, Steve Gerber, Andy Helfer, and Marv Wolfman. If anything, Byrne seemed to resist their choices and worked hard to bring back all the ridiculous Silver Age shenanigans the reboot had sought to remove. As for whether or not Superboy should have been included, I happen to love classic Superboy, but what I love most about it is its wholesomeness and sense of stability. In a world of fear and chaos, wholesomeness and stability are pure escapist fantasy. In the 1980s, though, America had a strong illusion/delusion of both wholesomeness and stability. Thus, the escapist fantasies of the period ran in the opposite direction, involving dark anti-heroes and grim deconstruction. Superboy was wrong for the 1980s, but man could we use him now! Which is why we got him.. thanks Tomasi! I don't think I could ever get sick of the Super Sons.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2023 7:38:44 GMT -5
I grew up largely in the 80's, including a number of my elementary school years and most of high school. I was there too, but I experienced a somewhat different 1980s. In hindsight, I feel like Rocky IV best captured the tone of the era I knew: simplistic, egotistic, mildly concerned with both the Cold War and racial tensions and yet naively convinced it had a grasp on both. The future was so bright, we had to wear shades, and while the "coming of age" films and MTV videos played to a generation in rebellion, what they were rebelling against wasn't injustice or even a political machine; they were rebelling agains the clean-cut wholesomeness that America was attempting to embrace again, failing to note the irony that it was being brought about by Jerry Falwells and Jim Bakkers. They were fighting for the right to party and little else. I think you may have been on the younger side during that decade, it was not Rocky IV even though the movie was loosely symbolic of the still present nuclear threat and tension with Russia. We were not rebelling against clean-cut wholesomeness, this was not really a thing back then (Jerry Falwell and Jim Bakker did not remotely seem like a "serious threat" any of us were talking about). We were FULLY educated on the civil rights movement, we were the Sesame Street generation in the 70's when Jesse Jackson was telling ALL of us we could be anything, and forgive our naivete but many of us believed that. No, the 80's wasn't a "mildly concerned", we were trying to build on the progess we thought had been made and trying to move it forward. We saw the idealism of a Cosby Show and a Different World, and while we knew the "real world" was far from that advanced, it inspired us to try to make that idealism more of a reality. Don't mistake our lack of headbands, bell bottoms, and protest signs, for a lack of "fighting for rights", the fight had evolved and forgive us for thinking positivity also had power to make the world better. Also remember, there were many adults during that time that had been significantly touched by the Vietnam war. My dad was one of them, they did not come back to a society as wartime heroes ready to raise their family in a 50's style idyllic setting. There were not just physical scars but signficant mental ones as well, and made their relationships with their country not such a simple matter after that. It impacted us as a generation growing up, in some ways our "rebellion" was an underlying aftershock from those raising us who were not as universally preaching how great America was. Our seeming "party" attitude was not quite as superficial as you may think, trust me.
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