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Post by foxley on May 18, 2023 19:52:31 GMT -5
You're the Stan Lee clone, he hated kid sidekicks too. One day I'll have to contact you in a zoom , just us two, to explain to you the greatness of Thanos. Then what the hell was the deal with Rick Jones, kid sidekick to the Hulk and Captain America?
Of course, Stan had his finger on the pulse of youth culture, so Rick was into all those thing that hip teens of the 60s were into, like ham radio and sneaking into nuclear test sites.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 18, 2023 21:30:33 GMT -5
Have most of those that have posted hated these characters from the start or was it a matter of just growing up and your tastes changing? When I think about my list it was half forever and half after getting over the age of 30. I can say, without a doubt, I hated Lord of Time as a young teen, when I first saw him in JLA. Nothing I saw later made him any better. Punisher I didn't think much of, until i was in college, in the mid-80s. In the 70s, when he debuted and for most of the rest of the decade, he was an antagonist. not an outright villain; but not exactly an anti-hero, either. he mainly was a warning of what happens when you take vigilantism to the extreme. At the same time, in my mid-teens, I was a bit of a gun nut and discovered the Executioner series and read many of them, until I got tired of the formula and also matured a bit. They were better written and Gerry Conway's origin story and second story, from Marvel Preview and Marvel Super Action magazines, were pure Bolan rip-off, without the more interesting qualities. Contrast that with the film antecedents like Dirty Harry and Paul Kersey, in Death Wish (Charles Bronson). Harry Callahan still had lines he wouldn't cross and still believed in the rule of law. He was just a bit reactionary and willing to cut a few corners. Death Wish was a bit more layered, in the original form and more about anger at a dysfunctional system, which people who lived in urban areas of the 70s could understand. It was still reactionary; but, Kersey is more specific in his targets. Once they did a sequel, it is more Right Wing vigilantism and gets worse with each entry. the second at least has him struggling with a new relationship and the pull to go after street thugs. The 80s turned the Punisher into a hero; and, by that point, I had matured enough that the idea of someone taking the law in their own hands and acting as judge, jury and executioner went against the ideals I believed in and had taken an oath to defend, as a midshipman and naval officer. I also learned what it was like to be a professional, in a field where you act in service to society. I was overly enamored of mercenary soldiers, as a teen, but grew to loath them as hired killers, as a professional. Maturity and a different perspective. Northwind was just a bland, boring non-character who did very little in the series (Inifinity, Inc) where he was supposed to be a co-star. He was a token ethnic character and so little thought was given to him that you immediately looked at him as a token character. Roy never did anything with him and no one else at DC gave two s@#$ about the Inifnity, Inc characters and he was ignored more than all of the rest. the character design didn't help and I read that he was altered into something like Hawkman, in Kingdom Come (based on the Hawkgod), but still only briefly used. If no one at DC, including the character's creator, can care enough to imbue him with any personality or have him go through any kind of journey, why should the reader identify with him, even if you are looking for heroes that match your skin color or ethnicity? There are better characters for you, if that is your motivation. Roy didn't intend it; but, Northwind ends up being more of a racial caricature through inaction than deliberate design. Even characters like Whitewash Jones, Steamboat or Ebony White had more positive traits, despite the actual physical caricature and use of stereotypes. They still had some level of agency, which Northwind lacked, except as a group action. Checkmate was just badly written and poorly conceived and executed. It's supposed to be a spy agency, but they gave the spies superhero costumes that a re a bit too conspicuous and the weaponry of your average SWAT team. DC tried to appeal to the superhero fans; but, they weren't superheroes and they weren't fun, like SHIELD 9in the 60s and early 70s) and didn't have the intrigue of a John Le Carre or even an Ian Fleming. They just ended up being cops in speed skater outfits. It didn't help that they didn't really have a strong regular lead character, at the start, with the main recurring characters being Harry Stein, Harvey Bullock (who was better in Batman) and Amanda Waller (who was better in Suicide Squad). They tried adding Black Thorn, to liven it up, which still didn't help. They were also the weak sister in the Janus Directive crossover, between Suicide Squad, Manhunter, Captain Atom and Checkmate. John Ostrander couldn't be everywhere (though Captain Atom was Cary Bates, who was a better writer than Paul Kupperberg).
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 18, 2023 21:52:37 GMT -5
I can say that I've always hated Superman and Superboy.
(Except Golden Age Superman who is tolerable).
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Post by Prince Hal on May 18, 2023 22:08:16 GMT -5
Silver-Age Superman Bronze-Age Superman Modern Age Superman Superboy Phew, Superbaby missed the cut!
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Post by berkley on May 18, 2023 23:53:24 GMT -5
ThanosBland Darkseid ripoff that has become Jim Starlin's Mary Sue and is completely unbeatable. Apparently the only reason why he is hasn't killed everything in the universe is because he keeps deciding not to. 100% this. 1000% yes. I've never found Wolverine appealing, other than his first appearance ( mild appeal). That's it. One of the original "oh, he's FREAKIN' AWESOME!" overbearing characters Marvel used to beat readers over the head in a ridiculous attempt to raise his importance beyond the purpose of the character. Agree on both of those, although I did think Thanos was very effective in his first couple of big stories, the Captain Marvel and the Warlock multi-issue epics. After that, forget it. Wolverine has always rubbed me the wrong way - and to add insult to injury, he's supposed to be Canadian!
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,419
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Post by Confessor on May 19, 2023 2:31:32 GMT -5
You're the Stan Lee clone, he hated kid sidekicks too. One day I'll have to contact you in a zoom , just us two, to explain to you the greatness of Thanos. Then what the hell was the deal with Rick Jones, kid sidekick to the Hulk and Captain America? Of course, Stan had his finger on the pulse of youth culture, so Rick was into all those thing that hip teens of the 60s were into, like ham radio and sneaking into nuclear test sites.
Actually, Ham Radio was a reasonably popular and decidedly modern hobby for a young lad to have had in the '50s and '60s. There were Ham Radio clubs all over the U.S. and the UK in those days, run by adults who taught the youngsters morse code, radio wave behaviour, and how to contact fellow Ham Radio users overseas. In fact, most Ham Radio enthusiasts would've "collected" countries whose citizens they had chatted to, in much the same way as plane or train spotters would collect vehicle registration numbers. You also need to remember that, with the launch of a dedicated Ham Radio satellite into orbit in 1961, the hobby tied directly into the brave new technological world of miniaturised electronics and the space race. In those pre-internet days, Ham Radio was a very exciting frontier for young, technology-minded boys to become involved in. As for breaking into secure nuclear facilities, yeah, that was probably a less common pastime. But then again, teenagers have been going into places they weren't supposed to since forever.
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Post by james on May 19, 2023 8:09:01 GMT -5
Yes, a very unlikeable character. Peter Gillis made her somewhat sympathetic in The New Defenders, but then she killed them all! IF she ahd been written nicer would you have liked her more? I was never a Moon Dragon fan but I think it was because I just felt here is another powerful telepath and not so much she was kind of a bitch.
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Post by commond on May 19, 2023 8:15:26 GMT -5
I've got a lot of time for Slaine, particularly the early stories. The Horned God I thought was hugely overrated, but I'm not a huge Bisley fan.
I can't understand the irrational Thanos hatred. It especially bothers me when people claim that he was good up until the end of the original saga. I can only imagine those people are ignoring, or have never read, The Death of Captain Marvel, Starlin's run on Silver Surfer or the brilliant, Thanos Quest.
And Darkseid is not that great that Thanos is a second rate rip off.
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Post by badwolf on May 19, 2023 9:31:33 GMT -5
Yes, a very unlikeable character. Peter Gillis made her somewhat sympathetic in The New Defenders, but then she killed them all! IF she had been written nicer would you have liked her more? I was never a Moon Dragon fan but I think it was because I just felt here is another powerful telepath and not so much she was kind of a bitch. I was never a fan but I did like her better when she was trying to be good and fighting off the Dragon of the Moon and actually helping people rather than manipulating them because she thinks she's above them.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 19, 2023 10:25:33 GMT -5
I've got a lot of time for Slaine, particularly the early stories. The Horned God I thought was hugely overrated, but I'm not a huge Bisley fan. I can't understand the irrational Thanos hatred. It especially bothers me when people claim that he was good up until the end of the original saga. I can only imagine those people are ignoring, or have never read, The Death of Captain Marvel, Starlin's run on Silver Surfer or the brilliant, Thanos Quest. And Darkseid is not that great that Thanos is a second rate rip off. I don't get the Darkseid and Thanos comparison outside of being visually similar. But then I have also not read a lot of Darkseid as Batman is primarily the only DC character I have ever really been extensive in reading. And being that Darkseid is largely a Superma/JLA villian I have not come across a lot of stories of his. In fact Death of the New Gods and Cosmic Odyssey might be the most I have read of him. But I am a Starlin fanboy so you can take that with a grain of salt lol
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Post by codystarbuck on May 19, 2023 11:17:50 GMT -5
I've got a lot of time for Slaine, particularly the early stories. The Horned God I thought was hugely overrated, but I'm not a huge Bisley fan. I can't understand the irrational Thanos hatred. It especially bothers me when people claim that he was good up until the end of the original saga. I can only imagine those people are ignoring, or have never read, The Death of Captain Marvel, Starlin's run on Silver Surfer or the brilliant, Thanos Quest. And Darkseid is not that great that Thanos is a second rate rip off. I don't get the Darkseid and Thanos comparison outside of being visually similar. But then I have also not read a lot of Darkseid as Batman is primarily the only DC character I have ever really been extensive in reading. And being that Darkseid is largely a Superma/JLA villian I have not come across a lot of stories of his. In fact Death of the New Gods and Cosmic Odyssey might be the most I have read of him. But I am a Starlin fanboy so you can take that with a grain of salt lol Darkseid in Kirby's hands and in Paul Levitz', in the Great Darkness Saga is well beyond what came after, Kirby created a layered villain who admired the heroic traits of his opponents, while still showing that he was all about self-glorification. In Kirby's hands, he represented every dictator, every corrupt businessman, every swindler, liar, chiseler and every parasite who plagued humanity. He craved power and control, pursuing the ultimate control, the Anti-Life Equation. Thanos was pretty much the same thing, with a slightly different focus. Coupled with that, the Titans were pretty much New Gods Lite, with comparable characters. Starlin's original conception, allegedly, was a a bit different, especially Thanos; but, the story goes when Roy saw them, he saw the obvious and pushed him to ape Kirby even more than he set out to do. Both characters, aside from the physical similarities, had long monologues, the same bearing, the same respect for their opponent and the same desire to control. Their opposition tended to be a bit less interesting. You also have to remember, Starlin refined Thanos each time he went back to it. As I posited in my review thread of the Thanos epics, it seemed like each was a new draft of the original. The Warlock saga was far more complex and refined than the Cosmic Cube saga that introduced him, with Captain Mar-Vell (there is only one Captain Marvel). Infinity Gauntlet took that saga and refined it more, while losing the satire and commentary that the previous story had, in regards to religion and modern life. Starlin got his chance to mess with the New Gods, at DC and really did nothing with them, except kill characters and have Darkseid stand around monologuing. Thanos was a more active figure in his schemes, though, as Darkseid did not dirty his hands, usually. That was the thing about him, when used well; just as it looked like the hero might get close to him, he sent them away, or escaped himself. You knew his comeuppance was going to be a major thing.
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Post by badwolf on May 19, 2023 12:05:35 GMT -5
Darkseid has already had his "Mt Rushmore" moment, sort of:
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Post by foxley on May 19, 2023 20:53:07 GMT -5
I've got a lot of time for Slaine, particularly the early stories. The Horned God I thought was hugely overrated, but I'm not a huge Bisley fan. I can't understand the irrational Thanos hatred. It especially bothers me when people claim that he was good up until the end of the original saga. I can only imagine those people are ignoring, or have never read, The Death of Captain Marvel, Starlin's run on Silver Surfer or the brilliant, Thanos Quest. And Darkseid is not that great that Thanos is a second rate rip off. Well, if it's any consolation, I've loathed Thanos ever since I first encountered him. But I loathed him even more since he became overused and unbeatable in recent years (decades?).
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Post by Chris on May 20, 2023 1:19:34 GMT -5
Only four? Argh.... It's kind of tough to narrow it down to the four I dislike or outright hate the most, but here's a couple. Thanos. Dumbest motivation for a villain I ever heard. Guy likes girl, girl is Death, so guy tries to prove his love by attempting to kill half the people in the universe, and girl still won't go out with him, which just makes him try harder. And since Marvel was cranking out comics about Thanos for 15 or 20 years but couldn't actually let him win, someone came up with the notion that Thanos just knows he's not really worthy so he just keeps psychologically sabotaging himself! It's psychology, and it's really deep, you know? As for being a Darkseid ripoff, let's ask the creator of Thanos, Jim Starlin - Kirby had done the New Gods, which I thought was terrific. He was over at DC at the time. I came up with some things that were inspired by that. You'd think that Thanos was inspired by Darkseid, but that was not the case when I showed up. In my first Thanos drawings, if he looked like anybody, it was Metron. I had all these different gods and things I wanted to do, which became Thanos and the Titans. Roy took one look at the guy in the Metron-like chair and said: "Beef him up! If you're going to steal one of the New Gods, at least rip off Darkseid, the really good one!"Although in fairness, after Kirby was gone Darkseid was watered down and presented as pretty much a run-of-the-mill power mad dictator. Marvel even kind of admitted it during the DC Vs. Marvel series when they let this sail by unchallenged - This one might surprise the handful of people on this board who actually kind of know me - Superman. Or rather, the guy parading around in Superman's cape since 1986. The character was sort of ok in the early 90s, not great but not terrible, but after the Death & Return of Superman storyline concluded, the occasional issue I would pick up just made me wince. And this will also shock a few people - I never, ever, ever thought I would say this, but since 1994 , Superman has been so lame I actually prefer John Byrne's version. Excuse me while I go ritually scourge myself for saying that. As for other characters I dislike, there's enough of them but it's all pretty much an equally-distributed dislike. If I'm reminded of one that stands out, I'll add it. I'm not sure if groups count, but X-men always annoyed me. I can't really take the whole "prejudice against mutants" seriously when there is a real, legitimate fear there. Most of the superheroes - and villains - in the Marvel universe are one-offs, accidents that can't be repeated, etc. And the ones that could possibly be replicated tend to be characters like Captain America, who could be dangerous if he went bad, but he can't shoot lasers or control the weather over a wide area or whatever. But with mutants, there is a very real chance of dangerous mutations (e.g., super powers) spreading throughout the populace over time. Let's face it, a guy on the street bumps into Scott Summers and knocks his glasses off, and three city blocks are vaporized. (Just as I finished typing that line about Summers, the Slade song "Ruby Red" started playing. Go figure.)
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Post by Icctrombone on May 20, 2023 4:40:32 GMT -5
I'm not surprised that Thanos is getting roughed up in this thread. Often, when a character blows up in popularity, there is a backlash and hate that follows. It happened with Wolverine, Punisher etc. Most fans love the character and follow series after series. My problem with Darkseid is that he was poorly used and there weren't many stories written to do the concept justice. He was underutilized by Kirby as just a background character and he never ( from the books I've read ) got his hands dirty in punch ups. I love that Thanos has Reed Richards level intelligence , Steve Rogers type strategy but could beat up Thor and the Thing combined. Add to that his disturbed ideology about life and death , it makes him an interesting character of the level that Darkseid never reached. Over used in the last 5 years? Absolutely .
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