shaxper
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Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Apr 2, 2016 8:55:47 GMT -5
Going further, one thing about religion and DS9 that I always felt was genius was how the writers never took a side as to whether or not the "wormhole aliens" were gods. After all, wouldn't any god look like an alien from another dimension on a tricorder?
If you wanted them to be gods, they were.
If you didn't, they werent.
Really hard to sustain that over seven seasons, but they did.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 2, 2016 10:28:58 GMT -5
Was it in "Blood Oath" that established Trills are not required to fulfill the obligations of former hosts? You would have thought someone would have mentioned it in the S1 episode where they put Jadzia Dax on trial for the crimes of Curzon. They did state that (Dax did it anyway)... but I"m not sure the opinion of one old Klingon constitutes 'establishing' something.. especially since it was clear later in the ep that he was planning on suicide by mindless attack and didn't want Dax to die.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 2, 2016 10:34:03 GMT -5
Having 3 eps left in season 2 to watch, I don't think religion is very well treated so far. The Bajoran religion is kinda a mess... they have the orbs, but they make it seem like they're portable Holoprojectors more than anything mystical. Then there's the obvious religious corruption toward the end of season one.
Never mind the poor Kai, still sitting in those caves, never to be mentioned again (still bitter about that). I mean, if Pope Francis was shipwrecked in the South Pacific, and we knew were he was, no one would say 'oh, that's fine, he's doing good work there' and go pick a new pope.
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Post by Randle-El on Apr 4, 2016 11:54:02 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about the way DS9 has portrayed religion. On the one hand, I'm glad that it's being acknowledged and discussed in a somewhat thoughtful manner. Religion is a significant part of the human experience, and too many shows ignore it altogether, except to present one-dimensional fundamentalist-type characters as antagonists or comic relief. And characters like Sisko and Picard, while being ostensibly secular, have always maintained a solemn respect for the sincere spiritual beliefs of others.
On the other hand, I find it hard to believe (to the point of being unrealistic) that there would be no religious humans in the 24th century. Religious belief has always been around and, IMO, always will be in some shape or form. If including religious aliens was the writers' way of including the topic of religion into the show, that's fine, but then why not include Starfleet or human characters of various faiths, especially given modern Trek's direction of being more inclusive and presenting a diverse cross section of cultures and people? Even the Vulcans, who are driven by logic, are more "spiritual" than the humans, with their long history of ritual and ceremony.
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Post by Randle-El on Apr 4, 2016 12:00:43 GMT -5
I decided to put this in a separate post, since it's a completely different train of thought than my last post.
So I just finished watching the episode "Hard Time" from season 4. Man, the writers must really not like Chief O'Brien. So far he's been kidnapped and replaced with a doppleganger who thinks he's the real O'Brien, put on trial by the Cardassians, and time-traveled into the future, killed, and replaced by his future self. Now this episode comes along. He and Picard have quite possibly got to be the two most tortured characters in Trek.
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Post by dupersuper on Apr 5, 2016 7:01:41 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about the way DS9 has portrayed religion. On the one hand, I'm glad that it's being acknowledged and discussed in a somewhat thoughtful manner. Religion is a significant part of the human experience, and too many shows ignore it altogether, except to present one-dimensional fundamentalist-type characters as antagonists or comic relief. And characters like Sisko and Picard, while being ostensibly secular, have always maintained a solemn respect for the sincere spiritual beliefs of others. On the other hand, I find it hard to believe (to the point of being unrealistic) that there would be no religious humans in the 24th century. Religious belief has always been around and, IMO, always will be in some shape or form. If including religious aliens was the writers' way of including the topic of religion into the show, that's fine, but then why not include Starfleet or human characters of various faiths, especially given modern Trek's direction of being more inclusive and presenting a diverse cross section of cultures and people? Even the Vulcans, who are driven by logic, are more "spiritual" than the humans, with their long history of ritual and ceremony. In Enterprise Phlox mentions going to a catholic mass while visiting Earth, so specific organized religions survived until at least the 22nd century, but it clearly gets far far less common. Trek has always had a heavy secular humanist slant, and it's 1 of the things I've always loved about it.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 5, 2016 8:52:16 GMT -5
In Enterprise Phlox mntions going to a catholic mass while visiting Earth, so specific organized religions survived until at least the 22nd century, but it clearly gets far far less common. Trek has always had a heavy secular humanist slant, and it's 1 of the things I've always loved about it. Spock: "Humanist?" As a Vulcan I feel I should be offended. McCoy : Shut up, Spock. I agree with you, dupersuper: the secular aspect of the Star Trek society, by remaining neutral on matters of culture, religion, sexual orientation and taste in food (among others), is the best way to ensure Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination. I wish our own world was faster in seeing how that is best for everyone.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 6, 2016 22:32:17 GMT -5
The Wire s2 e22
Garak and Bashir talk about Cardassian literature.. I love it... they're going to lunch, but Garak is sick, and instead of letting Bashir check him out, he begs off and leaves.
Garak then pops over to Quark for something.. Quark claims it's a sizing scanner for the tailor shop.
The next day, Garak turns up in Quark's and drinks himself into a stupor. Bashir tries to trick him to the infirmary, but he passes out before it works. Bashir ends up finding a weird implant in his brain.
Thanks to Odo's spying, they find out the Garak was looking for the schematics for something.. (probably the thing in his head).. apparently it's classified, so the Cardassian Quark knows flips out and doesn't help.
Meanwhile, Garak is back in his quarters, trying to drug himself to death. He admits that the implant was designed to prevent torture, and it's not working. Apparently, he's been using it constantly, and wore it out.
They argue, and Garak tells Bashir why he was exiled.. he killed a bunch of (the wrong) Cardassian civilians during the war trying to prevent Bajorans from ecscaping. Bashir talks him into shutting off the implant, and monitors him by drying him out.
He wakes up and his very grumpy. He tells his story a different way this time.. saying he really got banished because he let a few Bajoran children go. They fight. And Garak goes into shock.
He wakes up again, with Bashir at a loss to do, and we get another Garak story.. this time he said he tried to frame a friend for something, but his friend beat him to it.
Bashir goes to Cardassia and does to see the leader of the Obsidian Order to get the info he needs to save Garak.. and he co-operates, because he would rather Garak live in exile and suffer instead of dying. Bashir, of course, saves the day with the info, and Garak moves on and acts as if nothing happened.
Notes -
Garak's stuff about duty to the stay and whatnot doesn't really fit with my image of them... seems more Soviet than anything.. and if I was going to liken the Cardassians to any historical culture, it would be more like Fascist Japan than Communist Russia. OTOH, having a KGB like spy organization DOES fit, so maybe it's not so bad. Then there's the fact that he's some sort of rebel/refugee from his people.
I like how Bashir admits he likes Garak to Dax.. but it does imply that he's trying to get info from him for some reason, which doesn't make a lot of sense for a doctor. Maybe he was out on a super spy mission the last few episodes.
I love that Odo monitors Quark.. it just re-inforces their love-hate relationship that he doesn't arrest him more often.
Not sure if I don't believe Garak because I want him to be a good guy, or because Cardassians telling stories are so often just stories, but I don't believe him. I don't know if I believe the good story either, though. The spymaster claims the last one is a story, too... but he had lots of reason to lie.
While I understand the dramatic reasons for Bashir to stay at Garaks side while he's out, but not very logical, since, you know, they have spiffy monitoring equipment.
I swear the alien that can into the restaurant at the end of the episode was a Narn for Babylon 5.
Fun character episode.. but I can't help but feel like it was filler after the Marquis stuff.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 6, 2016 23:22:21 GMT -5
The Crossover s2 e23 Bashir and Kira bond on a trip back through the worm hole.. but when they return they find DS9 orbiting Bajor and Klingons nearby. They board, and are terrified of Kira. Looks like an alternate universe.. maybe even the Mirror Mirror one(yup, Mirror Mirror). It seems there's a Klingon/Bajoran alliance..not clear if the Cardassians are conquered, or friends(friends, apparently). Humans are apparently slaves, and Odo the slavemaster. There's a rule that everyone from the other side dies. The regular Kira tried to get Mirror Kira to let her live and go back and make Bajor strong. She gets to talk to Bashir in the mines, and he, of course, knows about Kirk and the Mirror universe, so he things about getting Mirror O'Brien to help rig a transporter to send them home. Meanwhile, regular Kira tries to get Mirror Quark to help her. While Kira's trying to talk him into it, Garak (who is apparently the enforcer), busts in and arrests Quark.. who in Mirror world, of course, is a freedom fighter for the Terrans. Mirror O'Brien is apparently a milk toast, so Bashir doesn't have much luck. Meanwhile, at the bar, Mirror Sisko turns up.. apparently he's a privateer... and Mirror Kira's boytoy. Mirror Kira orders Quark's death, the regular Kira's shock, while Mirror Garak tries to use her to take over. Bashir uses a Thorium leak to kill Odo and escape. He tries to get Mirror O'Brien to help, and of course he does, even though he's essentially a coward in Mirror world. The escape doesn't last, though. They get captured and brought before Mirror Kira, who plans to torture them horribly as an example. Luckily, Pirate Sisko changes sides and breaks them out, and the go back home. The end! Note- Bashir's back to being the silly Doctor this episode.. too late. I'm super suspcious Funny how they just never seem to use the whole cast at once.. I wonder if that's by design, or just a style thing. I like the Mirror Mirror history... Kirk brings down the Terran Empire and the Bajoran/Klingon/Cardassians take over and make them slaves.. good use of Butterfly Effect . Kira playing mind games with herself? Epic! I'm not sure the passing reference to Duras and Urusla and Bator made sense.. would they have still been around? Not just that, but everything should be ALOT different after 100 years of divergence. I'll buy Kira and even Dukat (since that part of the Galaxy wasn't explored yet) but the rest,, I don't know. Kinda lazy writing to just randomly kill off Odo. Fun love letter to ToS, but still feels like marking time while they figure out what do to with the Marquis plot.
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Post by Randle-El on Apr 7, 2016 9:06:43 GMT -5
Fun character episode.. but I can't help but feel like it was filler after the Marquis stuff. Not meaning to sound like one of those message board people who insist on correcting spelling when they don't have any other valid argument to add, but in this case there is an actual difference that one letter makes. In Star Trek, it's Maquis (no "r"). They are named for French resistance fighters in WW2. Marquis (with "r") is a French title of nobility, as in Marquis de Lafayette or Marquis de Sade. The Garak episodes are always interesting. The actor that plays him does a great job, and I like how the writers string you along revealing a little more about him bit by bit, but also making you question what you know. I just hope that this isn't all setup with no real payoff.
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Post by SJNeal on Apr 7, 2016 19:16:07 GMT -5
I can understand how these episodes might feel like filler, being dropped in the middle of the larger Maquis plot, but both of the concepts introduced (the Obsidian Order & the Mirror Universe) would be fleshed out into their own ongoing plots eventually. Such is the beauty of DS9.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Apr 7, 2016 19:18:54 GMT -5
I really want to start watching these again. There's so much I want to do and so little time...
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 7, 2016 19:51:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I let spell check change it, then realized that was wrong.. you're allow to correct I agree 100% about Garak, but with all the dropped bits that have already happened that never get brought up again, I'm a little gun shy. I think I would have felt better if, say, that had a short scene on the bridge of DS9 with Sisko talking to the Bajorans about the Maquis, or something of that nature.. I think what bugged about those last too eps is that could have taken place any time in the series so far.. I feel like that's not great plotting. They were good taken by themselves though, so it's not SO bad
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Post by SJNeal on Apr 9, 2016 0:07:23 GMT -5
I really want to start watching these again. There's so much I want to do and so little time... Seriously. I was thinking the same thing (thanks to this thread) the other day, when I realized I haven't even opened my TNG season 1 Blu-Rays yet (or 2-7 for that matter!)
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Post by Randle-El on Apr 21, 2016 23:10:12 GMT -5
I'm about halfway though season 5. Just finished watching the two-parter of "In Purgatory's Shadow" and "By Inferno's Light". Season 4 was definitely the strongest season so far, and season 5 just keeps upping the ante. At this point, I have to say that while TNG will always be a sentimental/nostalgic favorite of mine, DS9 definitely has the edge in terms of storytelling sophistication. Whereas you knew that TNG mostly would tie up all plots by the end of the episodes, rarely with any consequences beyond the episode itself, DS9 is not afraid to completely upheave the status quo. Now that there's much tighter continuity compared to season 1 and 2, I'm definitely being tempted to binge watch more episodes.
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