'I even wore my old mask and wig, just to jog your memories'

Nice catch, Roy

I got lost for a moment: why was it necessary to put a "transition" Cap between Steve Rogers and Patriot?

I think Roy's intention was to cover the period established as when Cap disappeared (sometime between late 1944 and early 1945) and the end of the actual publication of Captain America Comics, in 1949.  The Spirit of '76 covers the rest of the war, to the two published All-Winners Squad stories.  The Patriot then covers 1946-1949, when Cap's series was cancelled.  50s Cap then appears and covers the brief time frame of the Timely hero revival.  The Virtues of Captain America blog make a good case for why Roy felt he needed both the Spirit of '76 and The Patriot.  The Patriot was still appearing in Marvel Mystery Comics, until issue #74, in 1946.  The two All-Winners Squad issues (#19 and 21, with no issue #20) were also in 1946.  So, Patriot would have been busy, hence Spirit of '76 getting the job, for the rest of 1945 and most of 1946.  The Patriot picks up the mantle, his series is cancelled, but he continues, as Cap, until 1949, when that series ended.  Then, Steve Englehart's 50s Cap (the first retcon to explain post-war Captain America stories) appears to coincide with the brief revival, in 1953. 

In Captain America Annual #6, JM DeMatteis explainds that Jeff Mace, The Patriot, continued for a few years.  Fred Davis, the new Bucky, was injured and Mace teamed up with Golden Girl (different from the Invaders Golden Girl), until 1949, as in those later comics.  However, with the war over and "...the spectre of Communism had yet to darken our land...," Mace retired as Cap and continued on with his career as a newspaper reporter, explaining the gap until the 50s Cap appears.

It's all kind of convoluted, but you can blame Roy's obsessive need to adhere to the publication of the characters, in the time frame they existed, originally.  Thing is, he would break those rules, from time to time; but, didn't here.

The Patriot got a mini-series, in 2010, (Captain America:  The Patriot) which told his story, as Cap, from start to finish, plus his origin and time as The Patriot, before assuming the mantle of Cap.  It's a pretty good mini, written by Karl Kesel.  I plan on covering it.

This kind of has me revising my plans.  At this point, The Invaders are done and Roy has done a retcon, via What If...?, of the post-War Cap stories.  The next phase will be to look, chronologically, at the various retcons to link the 1940s Timely to the 1960s Marvel.  So, I will look at the Saga of the Sub-Mariner and The Saga of the Human Torch, for their linking stories (not the whole mini, in either case), and how they tie in to their Marvel revivals.  I will probably also cover Steve Englehart's creation of the 50s Cap, though it took place before Invaders was launched; but, why not?  I also want to cover Cap's modern battle with Baron Blood.  Then, I will look at the 90s Invaders mini-series, from Roy, where they fight new foes, based on defunct 1940s characters.  Then, a look at post-War adventures for those specific characters who weren't exactly revived, like the original Torch, plus Master Man and Warrior Woman, in Namor, plus Spitfire and Union Jack.  Then , Ed Brubaker et al's further modernizing and streamlining of The Invaders, via The Marvels Project and Captain America:  The Patriot, plus, maybe the Young Allies mini.  I will also cover the Blazing Skull story, from Midnight Sons, and the return of the original Citizen V (or, rather, his legacy), from Thunderbolts.

Still not gonna cover New Invaders, since that is just the name, with new heroes, in the modern day and I don't really consider it the same thing.  I'm on the fence about the revival or Toro, after he was killed off and I don't see much reason to do Avengers/Invaders, since it rehashes the Avengers story; but, maybe....if I feel motivated.

Mostly, I want to keep to either Roy Thomas' material or the official Golden Age Timely heroes, tied to The Invaders or Liberty Legion, or Roy's use, like in the Kree-Skrull War.  I might use this to look at Joe Straczynski's The Twelve, since it covers similar territory, though I think it falls apart, halfway in (partially thanks to the delays in publication).  If I were insane, I might turn this into an exploration of the Timely Era, the Atlas Era, and the dawn of Marvel, as established under the Marvel continuity; though that makes for messy structure to things.

Valid?  No; just Roy's need to stick to the chronology of the published comics.  He wanted The Patriot, since he was a Timely character, relatively popular, and a logical choice.  However, since he still had his own series going, until 1946, Roy felt bound by that and needed someone in between, especially someone who could have a shocking death.  He could have stuck with the Spirit and killed him off in 1949; but, he still wanted to use The Patriot..

Thanks for the explanation, it sort of makes sense in an ADD sort of way.  I personally hated the move, because (a) it makes the Patriot's own career and 'legend' sort of an afterthought, and (b) because Cap 2 and Cap 3 are ... basically the same person anyway?  Non-powered formerly flag-costumed hero, filling in for Steve Rogers.  It felt redundant, just to have a death because, you know, What If.

In 1961, Martin Goodman's often-renamed company decided to try superheroes, again, since the competition seemed to be doing well with them and Martin was nothing, if not an imitator. Whether or not the impetus came from a game of golf with the owners of the other side or not is the stuff of legends; but, what is clear is that they launched The Fantastic Four, possibly with old monster material tossed into the mix, possibly recycling Jack Kirby's old Challenger's of the Unknown, possibly by swiping from Jack Cole's Plastic Man and possibly whatever Stan said in whichever interview that wasn't fact checked (most of them). I'm not rekindling that debate here. What is abundantly clear was that it didn't take long for Marvel (whoever had the idea) to revive some of those old Timely Era characters. They had already swiped the name and gimmick of the Human Torch from the original android; but, this time, they decided to use the actual guy: Namor, the Sub-Mariner.

Of course, they first had to settle whether it was pronounced Sub-Mareener or Sub-Mariner, like The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner; or, if it was pronounced Throatwobbler Mangrove! (^tmMonty Python)

So, as we know, The Human Torch stormed off after the defeat of the Miracle Man, because Ben called him a sissy or something. The team went to look for him (after Reed bawled out Ben) and Ben finds him working on his hot rod. Ben smashes the wall of the garage and tosses the car at Johnny, after he taunts him and Johnny flies off. He tries to lose himself in the Bowery, which Kirby makes look like it was about 40 years before. Johnny needs a place to stay and goes to a cheap men's hotel (basically a flop house, except you get a bed instead of hanging on a rope stretched across the room) and he settles in for the night and reads an old, discarded Sub-Mariner comic, because there were comics done about real people, in the Marvel Universe, aside from those done by Dell and Treasure Chest of Fun and Fact, and the like.



Some guy sees Johnny reading the comic and says there is a dude there who is as strong as the Sub-Mariner was supposed t be and starts hassling a scruffy looking guy, who just wants to sleep. The jerk taunts him to tear a telephone book in half and he refuses; so everyone gangs up on him, because why should he be left alone when a mob can try to bully him? Said mob gets tossed around like dolls and they grab weapons and prepare for round 2, until Johnny gets involved. Johnny can see the guy is ill and seems to have lost his memory and tries to calm the crowd; but, they want blood. He appeases them by using his flame to scorch off hair until we get the startling revelation.....



He is the Sub-Mariner. Johnny flames on, picks him up and carries him off to the ocean and drops him in the water, to revive his memory. Luckily, he is Namor, the Sub-Mariner and not Leonard Nimoy, so he doesn't drown. He then discovers that Atlantis has been destroyed and he forgets all about being allies with the Surface World and vows revenge. He summons up a massive monster and Ben has to play Jonah and climb inside it's mouth, with a nuke strapped to his back. After giving it an atomic heartburn, they fight Subby, until he sees Sue materialize and we learn about where the issue title comes from. Johnny conjures up a whirlwind and dumps Namor back into the ocean.

Subby would come back to play with the FF again, first in a tag-team with Doctor Doom; but they were booked to lose and Subby blamed Doom. Eventually, he found his people, attacked the surface world, stopped other Atlanteans from attacking and had his own adventures in Tales to Astonish (or at least Tales to Raise the Eyebrow) In the very last issue, Namor, tired after fighting the Hulk, is plagued by voices and mental images. He is lured to the Antarctic and finds a lost civilization, and a dude with a funky hat....



This dude would end up answering the question that fans had asked, since 1932: What happened between Namor's last comic book appearance and FF #4? Well, Roy Thomas was going to tell us! First though, he had to pick up the story where it left off, from Archie Goodwin, in a special bridging issue for Iron Man & Sub-Mariner, because their new titles weren't ready for them to move in (they had to finish the wall paper and fix the leaky faucet in the kitchen and repaint the kitchen cabinets). Namor resumes his confrontation with the man who calls himself Destiny. He mentions that they have fought before, but Namor has no memory.



We learn that Destiny worked as a carnival mind reader, Mentallo (not the guy who hung out with The Fixer), but was the real deal. He found out about an ancient race of people who had tremendous mental powers and a note about a possible location in Antarctica. He signed aboard the ice breaker Oracle, and persuaded the captain, Leonard MacKenzie, to stop and search for the remains of this civilization. Namor sees the images of Destny's mind and his father and Destiny locating the lost city and an amazing power soure. destiny is greedy and Capt MacKenzie tries to stop him, that no one man should control such power and Destiny causes an avalanche. Namor breaks free of the mental control and they fight.

Now, we jump ahead to Subby's new book, after he has unloaded all of the boxes and moved all of the furniture around. Namor is trapped under the ice and he thinks back about his father and Roy takes us back through Subby's origin, as Captain Leonard MacKenzie and his crew plant charges to break up icebergs and cause shocks in Atlantis, below the surface.Emperor Thakorr sends his daughter, Princess fenn, and a hand-picked band of warriors, to find out what is causing the quakes. She finds the Oracle and MacKenzie and they fall in love and do a bit of "ice-breaking" themselves. Thak is a bit worried, sends troops to look for his daughter and they try to take her back by force, which leads to a fight and MacKenzie's death. Fenn returns to Atlantis, with a surprise for Daddy.

Namor grows to hot-headed manhood and attacks the surface world and battles the Human Torch. However, when the Nazis attack Atlantis, he joins the Allies in the fight and battles Nazi u-boats in the Atlantic and Japanese aircraft, in the Pacific. After the war ends, he hangs out for a bit fighting criminals, as there is no one else to fight, but grows tired of it and returns home.



Atlantis suffers massive quakes, again, and Namor goes to find the source and ends up meeting Destiny, who attacks him and takes control of his motor functions. He continues his attack on Atlantis and Thak and fenn are crushed when the palace collapses, under the attack. Namor is helpless to save his mother and Destiny sends him flying off, against his will, his memory stolen from him. Namor arrives in New York, with no memory of who he is or where he coems from. He stumbles onto a fur heist and is attacked by the thieves, but Namor layeths the smackdown on them. He decides he needs to look like the other men, to hide out, while he tries to emember who he is....



He ends up in the men's hotel and meets Johnny Storm and we are back to where we started.

In 1988, Roy (and wife Dann) revisited Namor, with the 12-issue maxi-series, The Saga of the Sub Mariner.



He retells Namor's life story, with a bit of expansion and embellishment, starting with the Atlanteans and the sinking of Atlantis, after they have survived the Deviants of Lemuria bringing war to the Celestial Host. Atlantis is torn apart and sinks under the sea. Eventually, its ruins are discovered by a mer race, who claim them for their own cities and a new Atlantean civilization is born.

In 1920, the SS Oracle, an ice-breaker, seeking the Endurance, Eernest Shackleton's doomed ship from his 1915 expedition. on board is Paul Destine, the man who had been Mentallo and would later rechristen himself Destiny. Roy retells of their meeting and expands upon it, as Fenn learns to communicate with Capt. MacKenzie and he falls for her beauty. She reports back and get Pop's okay to continue living with the crew and learning of the surface dweller's ways. She and Leonard fall in love and they marry. Leonard is unaware that Fenn must continuously take an elixir to breath out of the water and on their honeymoon night, he speaks of returning to California, with his new bride. She fears what wil happen, but stays with her husband. He leaves her briefly, to travel with Destine to search for this lost civilization and the pair find it, but Destine causes an avalanche and MacKenzie barely escapes alive. He finds his new wife, who had been weker before he left, in even worse shape, as her elixir is nearly gone. he wants to take her to hospital but she begs him to stay where they are and Emperor Thakorr ends up sending his warriors to find his daughter. She returns, after the unfortunate death of her husband, pregnant. At the end of the first issue, she gives birth to Namor, a hybrid with caucasian human skin tone.

The series continues through a turbulent childhood, marked with a rivalry between Namor and Prince Byrrah, the heir to the throne. He also meets surface men. He goes to see the world of his father and gets into all kinds of trouble, in New York and throws massive temper tantrums, until police woman Betty Dean is assigned to try to meet with Namor and calm him down. She spots him in the water, jumps in an pretends to be drowning and Namor saves her.



She then tries to arrest him and he swats away her pistol. She is defiant and he likes her spirit. They witness a British merchant ship being torpedoed by a Nazi u-boat and Namor is unfazed, but Betty rails at him about the war and his own violence. She tells him of Germany and their thirst for conquest, in contrast to America (with their own thirst for economic conquest, but not so much against white people). He swims out and destroys the sub and returns to aid Betty. Others act hostile towards him and he responds in kind, but not towards Betty.

Since Betty didn't work out, the police chief sends out The Human Torch, leading to their big battles



Namor gets the better of the Torch in their first fight and Torch reports back and finds the chief arguing with Betty about Namor. he sides with the chief and goes off to battle Namor agaain and gets himself trapped in a glass tube, slowly suffocating, until Betty intercedes and offers to broker a truce between the US and Atlantis, if Namor will free the Torch. Torch agrees to help and Namor decides he will trust them, because of Betty.

Hitler sends his u-boats to conquer Atlantis, after learning of its existence, leading to a war between Germany and the Atlanteans, led by Namor. Namor meets with the Torch and pledges that Atlantis and he will aid the Allies, against the Axis powers. He joins Torch and Captain America in founding The Invaders. He fights alongside them and is there when President Truman asks them to remain together, after the death/disappearance of Captain America, as the All-Winners Squad. he reports back to his people and finds that the emperor has recovered from his injuries, inflicted by the Nazis, and Byrrah has orchestrated Namor's banishment, for "abandoning" Atlantis.



Namor is stopped from creating a civil war, by his mother, who convinces him that only blood will result and Dorma might be hurt in the fighting. namor accepts his banishment and heads away, until Thakorr comes to his senses, with Fenn's urging and counsel.

Namor returns, later, at invitation, but finds that surface criminals, in search of Atlantis' treasures, have attacked the emperor. namor and his cousin namora return to the surface world to extract justice, with the aid of Betty Dean. Namor's ankle wings wither away and he becomes less powerful, a situation which worries the emperor and Namor is subjected to an experiment with rejuvinates his strength and he regrows the wings. He is sent as an emissary to the UN, but a misunderstanding leads to fear and anger. Namor then is plagued by a voice in his head and is drawn to Antarctica, where he runs into Paul Destine, now calling himself Destiny.

The rest of the series mostly sticks to the established stories, with minor continuity fixes or an expansion of a scene, for more logical motivation.

The series itself was a 50th anniversary celebration for Namor and it would lead to other things, including the new series, from John Byrne. That will be a topic down the road.

The series has a back page where Roy reprints a conversation, from Alter Ego, wit Bill Everett. At one point, he mentions that one of the young fans of the new Sub-Mariner, was a kid named Jack Lemmon, whose mother was a close friend of Everett's cousin. Roy later sent some Sub-Mariner comics to Lemmon, who recalled both the Sub-Mariner and Amazing Man, the hero that Everett created for Centaur.

With the conclusion of the Saga of the Sub-Mariner, Roy turned to retelling the Saga of The Human Torch. He will be our next subject, as we learn what happened to him, after the war and the 1950s and his reappearance in the Marvel universe, to discover that someone has appropriated his name.

A quibble - Cap and the Torch went away in '54 but the Sub-Mariner series lasted until October 1955. There were apparently some serious negotiations for a Sub-Mariner TV series going on, and Goodman kept publishing the comic to keep the character in the public eye.