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Post by tarkintino on Oct 7, 2023 0:01:19 GMT -5
I've always heard that DC didn't care so much about sales as it did about the merchandising that went along with the WW brand. However, what revenue did that earn for them in the 50s and 60s? To begin with, there were so few comics-related tie-ins compared to the deluge later on, and what there was was not Wonder Woman-oriented. Superman and Batman, yes, and especially during Batmania, but WW? maybe a Ben Cooper Halloween costume or one of a few stickers in a package with gum? Once the Linda Carter show debuted, you had merchandise, but that was a helluva dry spell post-Golden Age for DC to ride out publishing a loss leader. MDG covered Ideal's Super Queens spin-off from Captain Action, but Wonder Woman ended up merchandised to a healthy degree before the 1976-79 Lynda Carter TV series, as seen in the small sampling below:
A. In 1966, the Ideal toy company--capitalizing on "Batmania" produced the Official Batman & Justice League of America Play Set, featuring a number of static figurines of DC characters, including a Wonder Woman (see inset for detail).
B. Aurora Plastics Corporation, perhaps one of the most celebrated manufacturers of IP-based plastic model kits, released Wonder Woman in 1966. The WW kit is notable in that she was popular enough to even earn a kit following models of Superman, Superboy & Krypto and Batman. Aside from Robin, no other DC superhero character was adapted into a kit (In other words, no Flash, Green Lantern, et al.). The rest of Aurora's DC output were all based on the Bat-craze (comic book Penguin & Batplane / TV Batmobile, Batcycle and Batboat).
C. Peter Pan Records released a number of 45rpm children's records in die-cut sleeves, usually with art by Murphy Anderson. In this case, Anderson's work for the Wonder Woman LP was bold and energetic. The story on the record...not so much.
D. Ideal's Super Queens, featuring Wonder Woman...with the Captain America shield from the Captain Action / Cap costume set.
E. Mego Corporation's World's Greatest Super-Gals! from 1973. Just about anyone breathing knows the story of Mego redefining the very idea of superhero action figures, and that included 8-inch female characters such as WW.
F. Never slow to rest on their IPs licenses, Mego adapted Wonder Woman (and other DC, Marvel and Planet of the Apes characters) as 5-inch Bend 'n' Flex figures.
G. 7-Eleven, the Southland Corporation's famed convenience store, produced a large number of DC-themed cups in 1973, with WW earning her own.
DC obviously knew the merchandising value in Wonder Woman in the years before the Carter TV series, and while the output of WW goods never reached the level of Superman or Batman, she was in a solid third place to consumers.
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Post by zaku on Oct 7, 2023 3:34:25 GMT -5
Considering that Wonder Woman was among the very few superheroes who continued to be published even when the genre lost its interest, at this point I wonder if people actually bought her magazine or DC simply kept her on life support already since after Marston's death to not lose the rights to the character. Does anyone have more information?
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 7, 2023 6:15:02 GMT -5
Considering that Wonder Woman was among the very few superheroes who continued to be published even when the genre lost its interest, at this point I wonder if people actually bought her magazine or DC simply kept her on life support already since after Marston's death to not lose the rights to the character. Does anyone have more information? Before anyone posts a reference or answer to your question, another question comes up: if the Wonder Woman title was selling poorly in the 60s--kept on "life support" as it has been suggested, that would also imply a general lack of interest in the character. By the 1960s, comic books were the vehicle WW was most identified with (she had no animated or live action series to elevate her to a larger,non-comic reading public), so how was DC able to see so much toy manufacturing interest in an allegedly "unpopular" character? Toy and other category of manufacturers were not in the habit of spending their money on properties that were not going to turn a profit for them, so considering how much WW merchandise had been produced in the 60s and pre-Lynda Carter "effect" 70s, what was the character's licensing and consumer draw? |
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Post by Chris on Oct 7, 2023 9:12:20 GMT -5
Considering that Wonder Woman was among the very few superheroes who continued to be published even when the genre lost its interest, at this point I wonder if people actually bought her magazine or DC simply kept her on life support already since after Marston's death to not lose the rights to the character. Does anyone have more information? This was answered just a few posts up. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 7, 2023 10:37:49 GMT -5
Thanks for digging all of those WW merchandise photos, tarkintino . I never saw any of them myself, but clearly DC had a reason for using WW along with the big three of Batman, Robina and Superman. The JLA cave looks like it has the Joker, the Key and Brain Storm on the right. Wasn't sure about the other villains, on the left, but found more information here with a different picture of the set that includes as one of the bad guys Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt. The story gives an explanation. scoop.previewsworld.com/Home/4/1/73/1017?articleID=149162The Kaltor character is an Aquaman villain; Mouse Man appeared a few times in Wonder Woman, though only once on a cover.    |
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Post by Rob Allen on Oct 7, 2023 12:55:53 GMT -5
I think WW was attractive to toy companies because parents wanted something they could buy for their daughters when they bought a superhero toy for their sons.
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Post by zaku on Oct 8, 2023 7:49:12 GMT -5
I think WW was attractive to toy companies because parents wanted something they could buy for their daughters when they bought a superhero toy for their sons. I agree. I don't think the comics (at least after Marston's death) had much to do with whether or not the WW dolls were successful. Wonder Woman was simply the only superhero with a Q score greater than zero (until Supergirl and Batgirl came along). |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 8, 2023 9:54:49 GMT -5
I think WW was attractive to toy companies because parents wanted something they could buy for their daughters when they bought a superhero toy for their sons. I agree. I don't think the comics (at least after Marston's death) had much to do with whether or not the WW dolls were successful. Wonder Woman was simply the only superhero with a Q score greater than zero (until Supergirl and Batgirl came along). I also think you can’t underestimate the parent/grandparent effect on buying merchandise. Wonder Woman’s comics did sell during the 40s. Those little girls (and boys) grew up to buy that licensed merchandise based on their memories of the character. |
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 8, 2023 11:55:33 GMT -5
I think WW was attractive to toy companies because parents wanted something they could buy for their daughters when they bought a superhero toy for their sons. I agree. I don't think the comics (at least after Marston's death) had much to do with whether or not the WW dolls were successful. Wonder Woman was simply the only superhero with a Q score greater than zero (until Supergirl and Batgirl came along). Batgirl--the Gordon version arrived in 1967, and although the character was a breakout success with high visibility in comics, had weekly representation on the third & final season of the Batman TV series (thus, far greater visibility to the general public than Wonder Woman at that point in history), and was primed for merchandising (including a set of stickers, Ideal's Super Queens doll line, etc.), Wonder Woman still had the lion's share of merchandising for DC's female characters--with no presence on TV or film.
Even by the end of the 60s, Batgirl continued to gain greater media exposure via Filmation's The Batman - Superman Hour / The Adventures of Batman cartoons (1968-69), yet for a character who was a genuine company project, again, Batgirl was no match for Wonder Woman where merchandising was concerned, and that's a curious thing.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 8, 2023 12:38:25 GMT -5
I think you can point to the unique nature of Wonder Woman making her more attractive for merchandizing than a derivative character, like Supergirl or Batgirl. Without knowledge, you look at them and think female version of the better known male character. With Wonder Woman, you think of Wonder Woman. You can see how she would be more attractive to girls and parental buyers, as she is unique, not a knockoff of another character.
That's probably also why girls would have Barbie date their older brother's GI Joe, instead of Ken...aside from the uniform. Even plastic chicks dig the uniform.
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Post by rberman on Oct 8, 2023 14:42:16 GMT -5
Wonder Woman #202 “Fangs of Fire!” (October 1972) Theme: Ill met in Nehwon Story: Samuel R. Delany Art: Dick Giordano Editing: Denny O'Neil Dramatis PersonaeDiana Prince, jewel flinger I Ching, blind man, martial arts mentor Catwoman, professional burglar Fafhrd, Barbarian Grey Mouser, thief Gawron, evil sorcerer Jonny Double, dude in distress Lu Shan, Dragon Lady The Story: Diana, Catwoman, and I Ching arrive in the fantasy land of Nehwon and lay sprawled on the ground. Two local toughs named Fafrhd and Grey Mouser attempt to rob them, leading to a Misunderstanding Fight. Turns out the two ruffians are after a jewel known as the Eye of the Ocean, which I Ching somehow knows well. It’s the twin of the Fist of Flame which Diana has, and the two stones function as palantirs, so that gazing into one shows the surroundings of the other. This is a different result than we saw when Diana looked into the stone last issue, but it’s a new writer, so…  Back on Earth, I Ching’s evil daughter Lu Shan has the Eye of the Ocean, and also a warehouse-sized dimension-bridging machine but needs both gems to power it. A duplicate of her machine somehow resides inside the fortress of Nehwon’s local wizard Gawron. Sure, why not? I Ching charms a mouse to lead Catwoman and Grey Mouser through a hidden entrance into Gowron’s castle. He has so many handy abilities!  Diana and Fafhrd take a more combat-intensive route into the castle but end up in the same place, just as Lu Shan’s magic gem randomly transports her (and her captive Jonny Double, and three tong thugs) into the land of Nehwon. I Ching wanders into the machine room as well. As a plot it’s absurd, but it makes a nice visual for Giordano, one of the few non-opening splash pages we’ve seen in this series.  I Ching ends up with both magic gems and uses them to open the portal. He, Diana, Jonny, and Catwoman can run through. Fafhrd and Grey Mouser decide to come as well, and Mouser manages to bring the Eye of the Ocean along so that the villains can’t follow.  Everybody’s safe back in our world! Jonny Double’s office, to be exact. Fafhrd and Grey Mouser take one step onto the city streets, complain about the smell, and ask to be transported back to Nehwon. The magic jewel obligingly teleports them home. The end! The end, except for a half page blurb advertising their own upcoming series, Swords Against Sorcery, which was retitled Sword of Sorcery once it arrived. It adapted Lieber stories and featured art from Howard Chaykin, Jim Starlin, and Walt Simonson. Not bad! But it only lasted five issues. My Two Cents: Fritz Lieber’s fantasy characters Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser first saw publication in 1947 but received new acclaim in 1970-71 when their prequel origin story “Ill Met in Lankhmar” won both Hugo and Nebula awards. 1970 also saw the launching of Marvel’s very successful Conan the Barbarian series. Both Marvel and DC scrambled for all the sword-swinging and chest-baring characters they could muster, including Skull the Slayer, Ironwolf, Red Sonja, and a dozen more. Fafhrd and Grey Mouser must have gotten lost in the crowd, despite their name recognition among the generation that wrote comic books. Into this mix throw Hugo/Nebula winning author Samuel “Chip” Delaney, making a comic book debut which would last all of two issues. I can’t imagine this was a story he chose for himself; editor (and departing writer) Denny O’Neil likely tasked Delaney to write a story that wrapped up the “Fist of Flame” story from #202, teased the upcoming Swords against Sorcery series, and made sense of the presence of both Catwoman and Lu Shan in Nehwon. Delaney failed at the "make sense of it" part, constantly relying on coincidence and random events, but don’t hold it against him. The Nehwon story shouldn’t even have begun until the Catwoman/Fist of Flame/Lu Shan narrative concluded. Fashion Plate: Diana hasn’t been home, so she’s still in her all-white turtleneck outfit. I have never specifically mentioned that I Ching always dresses like a funeral parlor host, no matter what combat-heavy adventure he’s likely to be in, or even mountain climbing in Tibet, but you probably noticed that on your own. Gawron the wizard wears the requisite violet robe, but don’t miss the insane magenta collar that towers even above his pointy wizard hat. Catwoman's eyes are not slitted when she takes off her mask. She has a flapper Betty Boop haircut.  Lu Shan has a fine Dragon Lady dress completed with diamond-shaped boob window and flowers in her hair. Why do Gawron’s goons wear cat masks? Is this something from Lieber’s books? Sexual Politics: Our new writer has the women acting with impulsive emotionality. Lu Shan throws the valuable Eye of the Ocean on the floor for no particular reason; Diana likewise flings the Fist of Flame away in a fit of pique, forcing Fafhrd to chase it down. She declares herself insane in the second panel below, and from her wide-eyed expression, I’m forced to agree.  Bond Girl Boy: Jonny Double spends most of the story lying on the floor, tied up. Body Count: Fafhrd swings his two-handed sword around with great gusto, felling Gawron’s guards left and right. Lettercol: Despite the alleged hundreds of letters O’Neil receives, there doesn’t seem to be much to print, only half a page worth of text, and O'Neil spends half of that space as a an editorial gushing about the coup of getting Delaney to write for Wonder Woman. Two actual letters: Rush Glick declares the confusing Beauty Hater story “the most intelligent and visually stunning tale” ever in Wonder Woman. Scott Gibson wants to see Sekowsky’s supporting cast like Morgana, Tony Petrucci, and THEM again. O’Neil says we will. (We won’t.)
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 8, 2023 15:20:53 GMT -5
There were no recurring villains in the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories, as they usually ended up dead. I don't recall anyone with cat masked henchmen. Usually, they either had monsters or generic soldiers. The fun of those stories was in their personalities and how the defied convention. Fafhrd, the hulking northern barbarian, was a fairly philosophical and romantic figure, while Gray Mouser was more cynical and also a former wizard's apprentice, who knew enough that magic was dangerous and best not to mess with it. They were also more realistic in not battling odds that didn't favor them. They jhad more realistic motivations, like lust and greed, though they also got manipulated into situations, by their godlike patrons. Add to the characterization that their settings were often urban environments, which makes you wonder why Hollywood still hasn't caught onto them as a potential franchise.
In my opinion, they were waaaaaayyyy more fun than the Conan stories. Conan was big on atmosphere and action; but, Fafhrd and Gray Mouser had more fun and personality (probably because Lieber had fun, instead of alcoholism and depression and didn't put a gun to his head). They also matured as characters, when he brought them back. On top of things, they have a sense of humor.
Michael Chabon did a nice homage to them, with Gentlemen of the Road. Fafhrd, the Northern barbarian, becomes Amran, a large Abyssinian, who likes to gamble, and Gray Mouser became Zelikman, a Frankish physician. They get involved with a fugitive Khazar prince and it mixes in Jewish lore and history, with the fantasy-adventure template.
Fafhrd and Gray Mouser first saw publication in 1939, in "Two Sought Adventure," published in John W Campbell's Unknown magazine. 1947 was when Arkham House published the first book collection of Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories, Night's Black Agents, with two new stories.
Fafhrd is based on Fritz Leiber, himself (who was quite tall). Leiber was Fritz Jr, the son of a noted stage actor, in Chicago. He actually dabbled a bit himself, but chose writing as a profession. Gray Mouser was based on friend Harry Otto Fischer, another science fiction writer.
Dc gets laughed at for trying to copy Marvel's success with Conan; but, Marvel tried and failed with other characters, too. However, DC chose well in licensing Fafhrd and Gray Mouser and could have had a bigger deal, with someone who was more adept at writing that kind of thing than Denny O'Neil. The older Chaykin did quite well with it, at Epic, when he scripted Fafhrd and Gray Mouser, with art by Mike Mignola and P Craig Russell. Too bad the younger Chaykin hadn't developed his writing skills yet. Denny O'Neil was not a high fantasy writer.
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Post by MWGallaher on Oct 8, 2023 16:26:08 GMT -5
I loved this issue and it had me eager to read SWORDS AGAINST OF SORCERY. This had to be one of the most unexpected places for a backdoor pilot in all of mainstream comics! The scene where Fafhrd and the Mouser choose to return to their world after a brief exposure to "civilization" stuck with me, and I purchased their ongoing DC comic faithfully throughout its way-too-short life.
And I, for one, liked this Catwoman design--wasn't it an Alex Toth creation?
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 9, 2023 10:31:47 GMT -5
I loved this issue and it had me eager to read SWORD S AGAINST OF SORCERY. This had to be one of the most unexpected places for a backdoor pilot in all of mainstream comics! The scene where Fafhrd and the Mouser choose to return to their world after a brief exposure to "civilization" stuck with me, and I purchased their ongoing DC comic faithfully throughout its way-too-short life. And I, for one, liked this Catwoman design--wasn't it an Alex Toth creation? I always wondered about this, too, but I'm guessing it was because O'Neil was only editing DC's only two WW titles ( Weird Worlds) at the time, but since Weird Worlds was devoted only to Burroughs characters until its eighth issue, which came out in August of '73, he had no other choice but to shoehorn them into his next-to-last issue of Wonder Woman. I'm thinking there must be some other odd first appearances like this, but can't think of any right this moment. If there are, I'm sure someone will. And, oh, MWGallaher, I was disappointed that they changed the name-- inexplicably -- from Swords Against Sorcery, which made so much more sense. |
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Post by MWGallaher on Oct 9, 2023 13:55:15 GMT -5
I loved this issue and it had me eager to read SWORD S AGAINST OF SORCERY. This had to be one of the most unexpected places for a backdoor pilot in all of mainstream comics! The scene where Fafhrd and the Mouser choose to return to their world after a brief exposure to "civilization" stuck with me, and I purchased their ongoing DC comic faithfully throughout its way-too-short life. And I, for one, liked this Catwoman design--wasn't it an Alex Toth creation? I always wondered about this, too, but I'm guessing it was because O'Neil was only editing DC's only two WW titles ( Weird Worlds) at the time, but since Weird Worlds was devoted only to Burroughs characters until its eighth issue, which came out in August of '73, he had no other choice but to shoehorn them into his next-to-last issue of Wonder Woman. I'm thinking there must be some other odd first appearances like this, but can't think of any right this moment. If there are, I'm sure someone will. And, oh, MWGallaher, I was disappointed that they changed the name-- inexplicably -- from Swords Against Sorcery, which made so much more sense. Maybe they thought "Sword of Sorcery" might align nicely with "House of Mystery", one of their better-selling titles of the time. |
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