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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 15, 2023 22:56:16 GMT -5
There's more on the Kanigher's "murder" of Woolfolk in a Brian Cronin piece here: www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-robert-kanigher-assassin-dorothy-woolfolk/This little sequence will be of interest if you don't have a chance to check out the full story: "So, ten issues into his run on Wonder Woman, Sekowsky wrote a special two-issue back up story in Wonder Woman #188... in which Diana apprehends a shoplifter... and then runs into the shoplifter's partner, who is disguised as a woman. Diana apprehends that guy, too... And sure enough, Sekowsky just drew Kanigher as the shoplifter dressed as a woman, and even named the character CREEPY CANIGUH! He wasn't even TRYING to hide that it was Kaniger!"
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Post by zaku on Oct 16, 2023 8:23:46 GMT -5
Gosh! Amazing that this stuff made it into print. Today it would be a rash of apologies on social media and perhaps even a few lawsuits filed.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 16, 2023 9:34:40 GMT -5
Pretty much everything I've read indicates that Kanigher was a jerk of Weisinger proportions. So it's not that surprising.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Oct 16, 2023 17:44:14 GMT -5
Fashion Plate: The big news is that Diana gives up her white suit. While she’s unconscious, the Amazons dress her in her usual suit. This would be redesigned by George Perez in the mid 1980s, apparently because its eagle motif was not sufficiently trademark-able. His solution was to incorporate "WW" into the eagle, which I like. According to Wikipedia, the WW eagle substitute was designed by Milton Glaser, who also designed the DC bullet logo, and it first appeared in the preview of Roy Thomas and Gene Colan's run in DC Comics Presents #41.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 16, 2023 19:28:56 GMT -5
The mod Wonder Woman received a check-in from Grant Morrison in JLA #8.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 16, 2023 21:33:47 GMT -5
This was from Todd Klein's blog, quoting Alan Kupperberg, about taking the DC Office tour, back in the 60s....
Of Robert Kanigher, Alan says, “Him I didn’t like. Not him, not his writing. What he did to his artists was a shame. Of course, he didn’t try anything with Kubert because Joe was built like a brick building and could’ve snapped Bob like a twig.” Sounds like another editor whose power went to his head. Steve Mitchell says, “My favorite books were edited and written by Kanigher. I loved the war books. The content was exciting and the artwork fantastic. Joe Kubert, Russ Heath, Andru and Esposito, Jerry Grandenetti, Irv Novick and Jack Abel were, then and now, some of my all-time favorite artists. Kanigher begrudgingly talked with us fans about new stories and art, or talked at us rather, but he did give us some freebie issues not yet in the stores, which was a very big deal.”
An earlier part of the series features someone else who said they offered a mild criticism of a Wonder Woman story and Kanigher railed at them about "What do you know; I'm a professional.
Kanigher is one of the names I have heard in the apocryphal story of a freelancer, at DC, dangling an editor out a window, to get their check (Julie Schwartz was the other, and the version that Brian Cronin addressed, in his comic book legends).
It is telling that when Carmine took over as the boos, one of the editors he replaced was Kanigher, as Joe Kubert took over the war comics. Kubert, in a Comics Journal interview, praised Kanigher, said he was a great editor and writer and a nice guy. To him. At the same time, he saw him and other be abusive to guys who would take it; but, Kanigher seemed to know Joe wouldn't take it. he says he witnessed Kanigher berate Irwin Hassen, over a job.
Kanigher sounds like the quintessential bully, who would abuse anyone who wouldn't stand up for themselves and that especially meant freelancers, who needed the work.
It is worth remembering that a lot of people working in comic books, up through the 60s, were embarrassed by that fact and aspired to work for the slick magazines and publish novels and such. That kind of mentality is not going to draw the best of the best; but, comics still got some talented, creative people, within that world.
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Post by rberman on Nov 12, 2023 14:56:26 GMT -5
Howard Chaykin had very nice things to say about Dorothy Woolfolk in this interview today on Comic Art Live. He talks about Gil Kane making amends with the industry, and the problems of decompressed narrative. He makes an interesting observation that modern comics writers and artists read comics, but not novels written for adults.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 12, 2023 21:46:59 GMT -5
Howard Chaykin had very nice things to say about Dorothy Woolfolk in this interview today on Comic Art Live. He talks about Gil Kane making amends with the industry, and the problems of decompressed narrative. He makes an interesting observation that modern comics writers and artists read comics, but not novels written for adults. Listened to the whole thing, which makes me wish I could sit in his seminar. The thing about the later generations of comic artists (and writers) not reading for pleasure or not adult literary material is one I've heard since the 90s. You do see it in the work. The 1st generation were influenced by the great adventure comic strip artists (or cartoonists, if they worked a humorous style) and you constantly heard the names Raymond, Caniff, Crane and Foster thrown around; but, you also heard about things like Warner Bros gangster films, pulp novels and their illustrators, and some kind of fiction, either genre material via pulp magazines and paperbacks or the "great literary" stuff. You saw that with the second generation, but comic strips were less a factor than Golden Age comic books. Then, in many ways, it felt like you had maybe Silver/Bronze Age comics, movies and tv, without a strong prose component (either popular fiction or high-falutin' literature). Then, for artists, it just seemed to be comic books and the writers all seemed to aspire to write movies, rather than The Great American Novel (which was usually never as good as the trashy paperback). Personally, I am totally with Chaykin on "decompression." So much of it strikes me as just lazy writing and padding to fit a trade release, rather than the length the story requires or crafting a story that fits that vehicle well. Some are better at it than others; but, even the good ones strike me as self-indulgent, like a 20 minute prog rock solo that seems to be more about drawing attention to the artist than conveying anything with the music (or art or story). And, nothing against prog rock (some of my best friends are prog rock); just that the worst elements of it felt self-indulgent. (Same for punk that is more about the fact that they suck as musicians, rather than have a certain attitude to express). Listening to it and Howard talking about the seminars and the 3-day boot camp he did for Marvel (and I read an article about that, back in the day, which sounded fascinating and illuminating about how little professional training these guys were getting), it strikes me that he may be his generation's equivalent of Will Eisner, in terms of teaching about the form of comics, as well as using that form to tell stories and express ideas that work best within the idiom of comics. I would love to see Howard do his version of Comics and Sequential Art. As much as I loved Understanding Comics, I think Howard can speak better to the mechanics of the form than McCloud, who seemed to deal more in the philosophical and abstract form. It's been a while since I have seen an interview with Howard and seeing his hairline (still better than mine) made me chuckle a bit, as I was imagining the typical Howard Chaykin protagonist...that idealized/Hollywood version of himself, looking more like Howard at this age. I'm picturing Dominicc Fortune, with a grizzled beard and a lot of scalp, kvetching about something, while dealing with some kind of modern criminal, betraying his origins as Davey Fortunoff, with a lot of yiddishisms, while he points a Mauser at some young punk, with a Glock. I'd love to see Chaykin do that comic idea of the Blacklist; Howard doing historical work is dynamite, like his work with David Tischman, on American Century. That was such a great look at the darker undercurrents of the post-war period, that some want to paint as this mythical Golden Age, when America was king. There were a lot of references to literature, of the time, which suggested something other than that narrative, and stories like a riff on James M Cain's The Postman Always Rings Twice, with a twist on the ending.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 12, 2023 23:15:08 GMT -5
"Then, for artists, it just seemed to be comic books and the writers all seemed to aspire to write movies, rather than The Great American Novel (which was usually never as good as the trashy paperback)."I know you couldn't be referring to this Great American Novel, codystarbuck , which is at least in the running for the title, and wa-a-ay better than an airport spinner rack full of trashy paperbacks...
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 13, 2023 21:27:24 GMT -5
"Then, for artists, it just seemed to be comic books and the writers all seemed to aspire to write movies, rather than The Great American Novel (which was usually never as good as the trashy paperback)."I know you couldn't be referring to this Great American Novel, codystarbuck , which is at least in the running for the title, and wa-a-ay better than an airport spinner rack full of trashy paperbacks... Airport spinner racks never got the good stuff; you had to go into drug stores and the like to get that. I'm not talking faux trash, like Jackie Collins or crap thrillers with 20 pages of plot and 300 pages of filler......I'm talking hard boiled crime fiction, lesbian pulp novels, space opera, super spies, detective novels, western gunfights, bug eyed monster sci-fi, torrid romances, biological vampires, frontier heroes, masked pulp heroes, hapless thieves, snooty upper class amateur sleuths, smugglers, pirates, swashbucklers, knights errant, aviation heroes, intergalactic peacekeepers and diplomats, planetary romances, barbarians, urban vigilantes, cops on the mean streets, soldiers in the thick of fighting, capers,....... Genre fiction, where stories really come to life! Writers who knocked out so much material, because they got paid by word, and became some of the best writers you will ever find, with bibliographies that would choke a horse. You can toss in a few high concept novels and "literature," to keep the property values from falling.
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Post by dbutler69 on Nov 17, 2023 12:05:15 GMT -5
Wonder Woman #178 “Wonder Woman’s Rival” (October 1968) Writer: Denny O’Neil Pencils: Mike Sekowsky Ink: Dick Giordano Dramatis PersonaeWonder Woman and her alter ego, Diana PrinceSteve Trevor, Wonder Woman’s boyfriend Roger Seely, Steve’s old friend Alex Block, Roger’s business associate Buck the middle-aged hippie The Stompers biker gang Miss Carvan, blonde clubgoer, abstract artist I've been reading the Wonder Woman Omnibus that collects these issues, and now that I'm about 70% through I finally discover this awesome thread?! I wish I'd noticed earlier so I could read as I'm going along, but I will have to play catchup. Anyway, yeah, I've never been much of a Steve Trevor fan but he definitely comes off as a real jerk here, as you point out. I couldn't believe he got mad at Wonder Woman for telling the truth on the witness stand!
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Post by dbutler69 on Nov 18, 2023 8:47:06 GMT -5
Wonder Woman #179 “Wonder Woman’s Last Battle!” (December 1968)Creator credits appear on-page for the first time in this series. Marvel was doing this before DC, perhaps because writer-editor Stan Lee was building his own brand name. Writer: Dennis O’Neil Continuity and Pencils: Mike Sekowsky … what does “Continuity” mean? Ink: Dick Giordano Dramatis PersonaeWonder Woman and her alter ego, Diana Prince Hippolyta, Diana's mother, queen of Themiscyra Steve Trevor, Wonder Woman’s fugitive boyfriend The General, Steve’s boss I Ching, blind man, martial arts mentor The Story: As part of an undercover operation, Steve Trevor deliberately disgraces himself and goes on the run from his boss, The General. This consumes the first six pages, including a climactic splash page followed by a full page spread with a funky layout. Was there a Western martial arts craze in the 1960s? I think of that as something that started with Bruce Lee’s posthumous star turn in Enter the Dragon (1973). But Jim Shooter had introduced Karate Kid to the Legion of Super-Heroes in 1966, and O’Neil is awfully eager to put karate terminology in Wonder Woman’s mouth in this issue, suggesting it was deemed a draw for readers as well. I always thought it was odd that a Chinese guy would be teaching karate, a Japanese martial art, but I guess that the American public (incliding Denny O'Neil) knew of Karate but not Kung Fu at this point.
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 18, 2023 9:57:56 GMT -5
Wonder Woman #179 “Wonder Woman’s Last Battle!” (December 1968)Creator credits appear on-page for the first time in this series. Marvel was doing this before DC, perhaps because writer-editor Stan Lee was building his own brand name. Writer: Dennis O’Neil Continuity and Pencils: Mike Sekowsky … what does “Continuity” mean? Ink: Dick Giordano Dramatis PersonaeWonder Woman and her alter ego, Diana Prince Hippolyta, Diana's mother, queen of Themiscyra Steve Trevor, Wonder Woman’s fugitive boyfriend The General, Steve’s boss I Ching, blind man, martial arts mentor The Story: As part of an undercover operation, Steve Trevor deliberately disgraces himself and goes on the run from his boss, The General. This consumes the first six pages, including a climactic splash page followed by a full page spread with a funky layout. Was there a Western martial arts craze in the 1960s? I think of that as something that started with Bruce Lee’s posthumous star turn in Enter the Dragon (1973). But Jim Shooter had introduced Karate Kid to the Legion of Super-Heroes in 1966, and O’Neil is awfully eager to put karate terminology in Wonder Woman’s mouth in this issue, suggesting it was deemed a draw for readers as well. I always thought it was odd that a Chinese guy would be teaching karate, a Japanese martial art, but I guess that the American public (incliding Denny O'Neil) knew of Karate but not Kung Fu at this point. It depends on the writer and how dedicated they were to detail for something as glossed over as a fighting discipline. for example, in John Sturges' 1954 classic Bad Day at Black Rock, Spencer Tracy's character uses martial arts against the thugs in a hostile, hole-in-the-wall town, but the audience was made to understand that he was taught while serving in WW2, mirroring real world experiences of G.I.s, some of whom would go on to instruct Stateside, thus popularizing various martial arts and their origin. So in that case, there was no cultural misappropriation, but a valid explanation.
That said, despite the rapid rise and visibility of pre-Bruce Lee / The Green Hornet martial arts (especially in North America), again, certain writers would make broad assumptions about culture or origins of certain martial arts, or not care too much, because to some, it was just someone yelling "Hii-yaa!" as they chopped a guy in the neck.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 18, 2023 12:06:55 GMT -5
Well said, tarkintino ! That Tracy scene is one of the best in an excellent movie.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 18, 2023 22:12:36 GMT -5
Wonder Woman #179 “Wonder Woman’s Last Battle!” (December 1968)Creator credits appear on-page for the first time in this series. Marvel was doing this before DC, perhaps because writer-editor Stan Lee was building his own brand name. Writer: Dennis O’Neil Continuity and Pencils: Mike Sekowsky … what does “Continuity” mean? Ink: Dick Giordano Dramatis PersonaeWonder Woman and her alter ego, Diana Prince Hippolyta, Diana's mother, queen of Themiscyra Steve Trevor, Wonder Woman’s fugitive boyfriend The General, Steve’s boss I Ching, blind man, martial arts mentor The Story: As part of an undercover operation, Steve Trevor deliberately disgraces himself and goes on the run from his boss, The General. This consumes the first six pages, including a climactic splash page followed by a full page spread with a funky layout. Was there a Western martial arts craze in the 1960s? I think of that as something that started with Bruce Lee’s posthumous star turn in Enter the Dragon (1973). But Jim Shooter had introduced Karate Kid to the Legion of Super-Heroes in 1966, and O’Neil is awfully eager to put karate terminology in Wonder Woman’s mouth in this issue, suggesting it was deemed a draw for readers as well. I always thought it was odd that a Chinese guy would be teaching karate, a Japanese martial art, but I guess that the American public (incliding Denny O'Neil) knew of Karate but not Kung Fu at this point. Kung Fu isn't a martial art; that is a mistake of the West. Kung Fu means "mastery of an art," roughly. The alternate term is Wushu, meaning military skills; but, that also encompasses a lot. Even Okinawan histories credit the development of karate to influences brought to the island by Chinese settlers, who arrived in the late 1300s, after developing relations with the Ming Dynasty Chinse Shaolin Boxing (a catch-all for Shaolin Temple-derived techniques) were taught to upper classes who studied in China and forms were taught to others, in cultural exchanges. With the ever growing restrictions on weapons authorized for the lower classes, empty-handed fighting techniques grew and spread, as did adapting thing like farming tools to weapons (sickles became kamas, stick weapons, like nunchaku and tonfa, etc). So, it is not a stretch that a Chinese master would teach Diana techniques that were akin to karate techniques, especially things like White Crane and Wing Chun. Bruce Lee's base style was wing chun, which was developed by a Buddhist nun, named Wing Chung. It was taught to other women, to protect themselves against bandits and rapists, with specialization in close-quarters fighting. Lee learned from Yip Man, and then began to incorporate other techniques, as he sparred and worked out with others, plus things like footwork, from boxing and his own love of dancing. He learned groundfighting techniques from Gene LeBell, who was a champion American judoka, stuntman, and pro wrestler (his family promoted wrestling and boxing at the Olympic Auditorium, in Los Angeles, until the early 80s) and Filipino techniques from Dan Inosanto, while sharing his own techniques with them and others. Denny O'Neil had more than a little knowledge about the martial arts; but, these things tended to spread as fads and often you got incorrect info because of lazy Hollywood writing or bad journalism, or just a frame of reference. Judo spread through the world in the 20s and 30s, but movies would refer to "judo chops," when that isn't a part of judo. They didn't know the difference between karate and judo. Karate became better known in the post-WW2 era and into the 1960s. Chinese wushu/kung fu became better known in the 1970s, then tae kwon do and other forms of kickboxing, in the 80s. Savate had been around since the 1800s, formally (it grew out of streetfighting techniques of French sailors, who learned things like muay thai kickboxing and Persian wrestling, and brought them back to Marseilles), and any kind of kick fighting, for generations, was called savate, before karate and other arts became known. James Cagney studied judo and worked it into a couple of films, like Blood on the Sun..... Bad Day At Black Rock features an early depiction of karate, as mentioned above..... Ian Fleming had also written of karate in Goldfinger, in discussing Oddjob. Bond is said to have trained in judo, at university and the military. During WW2, commandos and other special units, like the OSS, were taught streetfighting techniques, by William Fairbairn, a former Shanghai police officer, with extensive background in streetfighting in that violent city. He developed what he called Defndu, which was a basic, no holds barred, gutter fighting, using various effective techniques to disable, cripple, and even kill an enemy. They involve attacks to vulnerable areas, like the solar plexus, the collar bone, knees and elbows, the throat, the eyes, under the jaw, the nose, kidneys and other areas. Krav Maga, the Israeli combat art, developed from those teachings. The 1960s war film, The Devil's Brigade, about the 1st Special Service Force (one of the precursors to the Green Berets) featured a demonstration of fairly credible techniques taught by Fairbarin and his hand-to-hand instructors. It gets a bit exaggerated at the end, but is relatively faithful, at the start.... In the 70s, the Billy Jack films popularized hapkido, a Korean style, used by the fight coordinator and Tom Laughlin's stunt double, Bong Soo Han.... Bruce Lee and Shaw Bros kung fu films popularized Chinese martial arts in the 70s, with the tv series Kung Fu being the biggest influence, outside Lee. David Chow, the fight choreographer, filled it with several Chinese styles, as well as other martial arts, including catch wrestling, as seen in an episode when Caine fights two American wrestlers, with one played by Gene LeBell. Here, David Carradine, as Caine, faces another Shaolin, a bounty hunter, played by fight coordinator David Chow...... The Karate Kid brought a resurgence in interest in karate styles, while Chuck Norris' rise in popularity highlighted his tang soo do style of karate (Korean style) and tae kwon do would emerge as another Korean base for kickboxing. The 90s brought Mixed Martial Arts, with the popularity of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. MMA is pretty much the philosophy of what Bruce Lee taught, of using whatever works best, for the situation and the fighter. In the MMA fighting world, catch wrestling combined with Brazilian jiu jitsu, which was contested in open rules fighting, in vale tudo matches, with the cage added for both spectacle (John Milius, director of Conan the Barbarian, suggested the idea, based on the pit fighting sequence, in the film), and the parcticality of containing the fight, with a boxing or wrestling ring considered dangerous, if they went through the ropes, during takedown attempts.
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