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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 12:36:40 GMT -5
Maybe this visual helps a bit as well back on my original post. This is just Wikipedia so obviously take it for what you will, but when I see the "notable works" below (left to right is Eisner, Kirby, Toth), I feel like Toth's comic book work is maybe glossed over/overshadowed. So again, it's been two questions for me. 1) What was really his comic book specific career legacy (and lots of great posts here have spoken to that in depth which I appreciate greatly!). 2) Did that work get overshadowed by his animation career (again per the visual below)?  I'll actually leave it there on the second question because I'll probably drive people nuts if I keep going on about animation (if I haven't already!). Sorry, I just love both mediums so much! Obviously regardless of how we have all approached the "historical lookback" questions, unquestionably he was a top echelon artist however you have experienced his works, and this thread has only continued to build on my already considerable appreciation of that. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 1, 2023 13:03:03 GMT -5
I bet many more people have watched and remember Space Ghost, Herculoids, Birdman, Sealab 2020, and Shazzan than have ever actually read the Spirit. So, we aren't talking about Comics anymore? And how many people who watched those shows know the name Alex Toth, as oppose to most who read the Spirit and Kirby's works. Given viewership figures for Saturday morning tv in those periods, vs comic book circulations, a hell of a lot more. Thousands of kid read comics, regularly; millions of kid watched Saturday morning cartoons, weekly. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 1, 2023 13:11:00 GMT -5
So, we aren't talking about Comics anymore? And how many people who watched those shows know the name Alex Toth, as oppose to most who read the Spirit and Kirby's works. Given viewership figures for Saturday morning tv in those periods, vs comic book circulations, a hell of a lot more. Thousands of kid read comics, regularly; millions of kid watched Saturday morning cartoons, weekly. Yeah…but that wasn’t teapot the question. How many people who watched cartoons as kids know Alex Toth’s name? I’m guessing it’s a minuscule fraction. His name wasn’t part of the production company, i.e., Hannah-Barbera. He wasn’t a name director like Chuck Jones. The general audience that watched cartoons for seven or eight years and then moved on to other fare has, I suspect, no idea who Alex Toth is. Animation fans do, as comics fans know Kirby and Eisner, but really only comics “fans.” Folks who read comics for a while as kids and moved on would have zero idea who Eisner was and might vaguely remember Kirby. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 13:18:48 GMT -5
Is legacy defined by popular name recognition, enduring popularity/recognition of the works themselves, or critical influence on a medium (or mediums)?
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 1, 2023 13:20:11 GMT -5
Given viewership figures for Saturday morning tv in those periods, vs comic book circulations, a hell of a lot more. Thousands of kid read comics, regularly; millions of kid watched Saturday morning cartoons, weekly. Yeah…but that wasn’t teapot the question. How many people who watched cartoons as kids know Alex Toth’s name? I’m guessing it’s a minuscule fraction. His name wasn’t part of the production company, i.e., Hannah-Barbera. He wasn’t a name director like Chuck Jones. The general audience that watched cartoons for seven or eight years and then moved on to other fare has, I suspect, no idea who Alex Toth is. Animation fans do, as comics fans know Kirby and Eisner, but really only comics “fans.” Folks who read comics for a while as kids and moved on would have zero idea who Eisner was and might vaguely remember Kirby. Oh, I don't know...his name was fairly prominent in the closing credits of his 60s adventure shows and they had exciting sequences that kids tended to watch, even though the episode was over. How many of Toth's comics actually had credits in the issue, before the 1970s? |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 1, 2023 13:23:44 GMT -5
Is legacy defined by popular name recognition, enduring popularity/recognition of the works themselves, or critical influence on a medium (or mediums)? I think legacy is any and/or all. Toth was highly rated by fans and peers and publishers and studios. His work was endlessly copied and studied. Commercial success aids that; but is hardly the sole basis for his legacy. He was an influencer, a critic, a mentor, a professional and a commercial artist, who did more than churn out work to satisfy a client. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 1, 2023 13:24:01 GMT -5
Is legacy defined by popular name recognition, enduring popularity/recognition of the works themselves, or critical influence on a medium (or mediums)? Yes. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 13:24:56 GMT -5
Is legacy defined by popular name recognition, enduring popularity/recognition of the works themselves, or critical influence on a medium (or mediums)? Yes. we agree  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 13:25:51 GMT -5
Is legacy defined by popular name recognition, enduring popularity/recognition of the works themselves, or critical influence on a medium (or mediums)? I think legacy is any and/or all. Toth was highly rated by fans and peers and publishers and studios. His work was endlessly copied and studied. Commercial success aids that; but is hardly the sole basis for his legacy. He was an influencer, a critic, a mentor, a professional and a commercial artist, who did more than churn out work to satisfy a client. Agree as well! |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 1, 2023 13:26:13 GMT -5
Yeah…but that wasn’t teapot the question. How many people who watched cartoons as kids know Alex Toth’s name? I’m guessing it’s a minuscule fraction. His name wasn’t part of the production company, i.e., Hannah-Barbera. He wasn’t a name director like Chuck Jones. The general audience that watched cartoons for seven or eight years and then moved on to other fare has, I suspect, no idea who Alex Toth is. Animation fans do, as comics fans know Kirby and Eisner, but really only comics “fans.” Folks who read comics for a while as kids and moved on would have zero idea who Eisner was and might vaguely remember Kirby. Oh, I don't know...his name was fairly prominent in the closing credits of his 60s adventure shows and they had exciting sequences that kids tended to watch, even though the episode was over. How many of Toth's comics actually had credits in the issue, before the 1970s? Maybe. But I tend to doubt it. I can say that I never paid any attention to credits when I was watching cartoons as a kid. They were less interesting than the commercials and thus a better time to go to the bathroom, grab more food or read part of a comic. |
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Post by MDG on Oct 1, 2023 14:37:03 GMT -5
Oh, I don't know...his name was fairly prominent in the closing credits of his 60s adventure shows and they had exciting sequences that kids tended to watch, even though the episode was over. How many of Toth's comics actually had credits in the issue, before the 1970s? Maybe. But I tend to doubt it. I can say that I never paid any attention to credits when I was watching cartoons as a kid. They were less interesting than the commercials and thus a better time to go to the bathroom, grab more food or read part of a comic. Even at that, what Toth did on cartoons is pretty far upstream from what viewers actually saw, where much if the impact comes from motion, action, and timing. What he did was important, but I don't think any of it directly gained audience (though it may have been instrumental in getting a show into production). Pros and fans who wanted to get past the surface knew/know who Toth is. One way to think of Toth is like Ditto without Spider-Man and Dr Strange: a long career working on short, genre stories for a variety of publishers, but marked by attention to storytelling, mood, and innovation. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 15:09:20 GMT -5
Maybe. But I tend to doubt it. I can say that I never paid any attention to credits when I was watching cartoons as a kid. They were less interesting than the commercials and thus a better time to go to the bathroom, grab more food or read part of a comic. Even at that, what Toth did on cartoons is pretty far upstream from what viewers actually saw, where much if the impact comes from motion, action, and timing. What he did was important, but I don't think any of it directly gained audience (though it may have been instrumental in getting a show into production). My thoughts on that topic: As a design artist with Hanna-Barbera, first off he literally created "worlds", so he gets creator credits which are a big deal. Then the massive amount of character designs and reference sheets, concept art type stuff, are a huge part of what happens next (I believe Toth did some storyboard work as well). The animators who draw the individual frames are expected to be consistent technicians who bring the established designs to life frame by frame, and paced according to storyboards and any animatics (rough animation work to guide the finished product). And Hanna-Barbera used a lot of "limited animation" techniques (re-use of frames, limited character movement, etc.) versus full traditional production. While I do get your point that in comic book illustration you quite literally get to see the artist's renderings (with some consideration of inking of course), I would argue Toth's artistic direction is very imprinted on the final products and why those works are so heavily associated with him. |
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 1, 2023 15:19:40 GMT -5
I am sorry. Toth is a master, an all time great, no question. But I can't see putting him in the top pinnacle position cat wants to place him. Was he great? Yes. Is he underappeciated? No doubt. I simply do not think he is the best comic artist who ever lived.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 15:23:00 GMT -5
I am sorry. Toth is a master, an all time great, no question. But I can't see putting him in the top pinnacle position cat wants to place him. I simply do not think he is the best comic artist who ever lived. Definitely did not state "best comic artist who ever lived, actual words were "top echelon" which would mean more "an all time great". Again, my goal in this is more understanding and summarizing the insights of the many great posts here, as stated before, I self-admittedly am not nearly as well-versed on his comic book career much as I have loved his other work. |
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 1, 2023 16:05:46 GMT -5
I am sorry. Toth is a master, an all time great, no question. But I can't see putting him in the top pinnacle position cat wants to place him. I simply do not think he is the best comic artist who ever lived. Definitely did not state "best comic artist who ever lived, actual words were "top echelon" which would mean more "an all time great". Again, my goal in this is more understanding and summarizing the insights of the many great posts here, as stated before, I self-admittedly am not nearly as well-versed on his comic book career much as I have loved his other work. Apologies superc, it was actually Slam who had him leagues ahead of Kirby and Eisner, not you. |
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