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Post by kirby101 on Jan 21, 2024 20:57:45 GMT -5
Hear you sharper. Edited my last post to remove the sauciness.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,867
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Post by shaxper on Jan 21, 2024 20:58:38 GMT -5
Hear you sharper. Edited my last post to remove the sauciness. Much appreciated, my good man.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 22, 2024 0:28:16 GMT -5
This is a Stan Lee thread, but since we're talking a lot about Kirby, I'd like to point out that the documentary Kirby at War is currently available for free on Tubi. Heartily recommended. It's very moving, gives a possible origin for the Kirby crackle, and is a noce tribute to a man who not only created a lot of our modern icons, but was also a brave soldier. My hat's off to him. Just finished watching. I thought they were reaching, a bit, on their talk of Jack's monster comics and the war. and they lack context on the Demon; but, there was a definite influence on the 4th World and, especially, The Losers, which I brought up in my Kirby review thread. Jack hated Sgt Fury, because it was a fantasy of the war and got off it as quickly as he could. The Losers better reflects his war, with close quarters fighting, artillery barrages, tanks, mud, cold and desperate battles. Jack fought in the Lorraine Campaign, Patton's push to take Metz and push into the Saar; but, he lacked the supplies, especially in September, 1944, as priority had been diverted to Montgomery and Operation Market Garden, the attempt to seize the Rhine crossing, at Arnhem, in The Netherlands. That operation failed and Montgomery ended up bogged down in Belgium and Holland, while Patton had to relocate to Luxembourg, before the German offensive in the Ardennes set off the Battle of the Bulge. There are some clips on Youtube, of Jack talking about the war and a fight inside a factory, which illustrate how desperate the fighting was, in his sector. Patton ended up taking a lot of criticism for how he executed the Lorraine Campaign and the casualties suffered, while their opposition was not exactly the cream of the German Army or Waffen SS. However, the German's fought hard at their frontier and were experts in deploying their men in fighting positions and fighting rear guard actions. I just finished Antony Beevor's D-Day, The Battle of Normandy, which covers the entire Normandy campaign, from the D-Day landings, to the eventual breakout, the Falaise Pocket and the liberation of Paris. Normandy suffered greatly from the fighting, with whole villages levelled and heavy German reprisals for Resistance activities and aid to the Allied advance. You don't get a lot of that suffering in most histories of the war. Once the Allies break out, they move swiftly across France, and the Operation Dragoon landing, in the South of France, also moved rapidly and it was felt that the easier liberations of the rest of France owed to the suffering that Normandy faced, as it helped break the back of German forces, in France, greatly depleting their armored formations. By the time Kirby is arriving in France, that phase is mostly over, as Paris was liberated by August 25. He arrived in time for the long, slow push into Germany.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 22, 2024 0:32:58 GMT -5
ps, had Jack not been medevaced out, he would have been in the midst of the Battle of the Bulge, as the 5th Infantry Division was deployed against the southern flank of the German assault. Had he survived that, he would have continued across the Rhine and finish the war, in Czechoslovakia.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jan 22, 2024 3:17:32 GMT -5
The argument has been made for Kirby (I'd throw Ditko in the mix) needing someone else to give his work a more commercial outlook. But Lee just was at the one at right place and time. We all would've benefited as readers, had someone with better writing skills been there instead.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 22, 2024 6:26:02 GMT -5
The argument has been made for Kirby (I'd throw Ditko in the mix) needing someone else to give his work a more commercial outlook. But Lee just was at the one at right place and time. We all would've benefited as readers, had someone with better writing skills been there instead. I believe that most, if not all success stories depend on right place ,right time. If Pacific or First comics were around in 1971, Kirby's future might have been totally different. All of his DC output would have been his to own and exploit.
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Post by commond on Jan 22, 2024 6:56:59 GMT -5
What Jack wanted more than anything was to be left alone to create his comics with minimal interference. To that extent, he quite liked have Stan as an editor. Before he left Marvel in 1970, he was starting to work on his own stories. IIRC he did Ka-Zar and Inhumans stories. It's possible that if he'd stayed at Marvel he would have been given the freedom to work on his own books. I also think it's highly possible that he could have been given the art director role and secured a permanent role at Marvel. Kirby wasn't particularly happy with Marvel's new owners, IIRC, but I'm sure something could have been worked out.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Jan 22, 2024 8:25:41 GMT -5
Stan was a brilliant writer (mostly), when it came to scripting comic books aimed at 8-to-14 year olds. His writing isn't exactly Hemingway, Dickens or Tolstoy -- though as I previously noted a page or two back, he was actually capable of delivering some quite profound writing on occasion -- but Lee knew he wasn't writing an adult novel: he was writing comics for teenagers. Now, perhaps it's true that Lee didn't have it in him to write a truely briliant novel for adults, but he sure as s**t knew how to write great comic books.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 22, 2024 8:26:12 GMT -5
Commond, I think by that time, Kirby had already moved to California, and I don't think he had any desire to be an art director. But I do believe he was developing the New Gods for Marvel. If I can find the specifics, I'll post it. But basically, rather than negotiate a new contract in terms of royalties and guaranteed pages, the new company sent him a letter to sign saying he has no rights and he must sign it to get any work. He walked.
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 22, 2024 8:56:54 GMT -5
Stan was a brilliant writer (mostly), when it came to scripting comic books aimed at 8-to-14 year olds. His writing isn't exactly Hemingway, Dickens or Tolstoy -- though as I previously noted a page or two back, he was actually capable of delivering some quite profound writing on occasion -- but Lee knew he wasn't writing an adult novel: he was writing comics for teenagers. Now, perhaps it's true that Lee didn't have it in him to write a truely briliant novel for adults, but he sure as s**t knew how to write great comic books. Yes, Lee knew how to write and shape great comics--many speaking to a maturing readership who connected to his then-rare kind of writing when they could not with those who scripted with an antiquated approach / ideology. Given the kind of interviews Lee gave in the late 60s through early 70s, he was undoubtedly one of the people at Marvel who was very aware of the sociopolitical changes / demands of the era, which made his writing in The Amazing Spider-Man and Captain America potent and often speaking to the sentiments and conflicts of the period, which elevated his status as a great writer.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 22, 2024 9:17:38 GMT -5
Though at times he could lay it on just too thick. His Silver Surfer being an example. People say Kirby failed without Stan. Though the reality behind the cancellation of the Fourth World is more complex than "it didn't sell". It sold better than other books that were not cancelled. But Stan's big book launch which he did without Kirby was The Silver Surfer. It also failed. As a teen I loved that book, and the Buscema art is still some of his best. But the quality of the book , as many keep saying in regards to the Fourth World, doesn't seem to be relevant when people want to criticize what Kirby did without Stan. That all said. I do think Stan's scripting on the books was a significant component to what brought the readers in.
I really think if he gave the credit where it was due and stuck to talking about his skill as a scripter and editor, we would not be having most of this discussion.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jan 22, 2024 9:40:51 GMT -5
I really think if he gave the credit where it was due and stuck to talking about his skill as a scripter and editor, we would not be having most of this discussion. I could not agree more.
Cei-U! I summon the heart of the matter!
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 22, 2024 9:44:13 GMT -5
Commond, I think by that time, Kirby had already moved to California, and I don't think he had any desire to be an art director. But I do believe he was developing the New Gods for Marvel. If I can find the specifics, I'll post it. But basically, rather than negotiate a new contract in terms of royalties and guaranteed pages, the new company sent him a letter to sign saying he has no rights and he must sign it to get any work. He walked. I would very much like to read the story where Kirby does ragnarok in the Marvel universe and the New Gods/Eternals whatever come after.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jan 22, 2024 12:28:28 GMT -5
Though at times he could lay it on just too thick. His Silver Surfer being an example. People say Kirby failed without Stan. Though the reality behind the cancellation of the Fourth World is more complex than "it didn't sell". It sold better than other books that were not cancelled. Moreover, this was a period of time when there was an enormous amount of fraud in the comic retailing world. A lot of store owners were hoarding titles they considered collectible, which resulted in Marvel and DC being convinced that some highly commercial properties were not selling. The 4th World books, and a lot of Neal Adams' comics, received that treatment.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 22, 2024 13:38:50 GMT -5
Though at times he could lay it on just too thick. His Silver Surfer being an example. People say Kirby failed without Stan. Though the reality behind the cancellation of the Fourth World is more complex than "it didn't sell". It sold better than other books that were not cancelled. Moreover, this was a period of time when there was an enormous amount of fraud in the comic retailing world. A lot of store owners were hoarding titles they considered collectible, which resulted in Marvel and DC being convinced that some highly commercial properties were not selling. The 4th World books, and a lot of Neal Adams' comics, received that treatment. Didn't the store owners have to purchase the copies they hoarded, though?
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