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Post by kirby101 on Jun 26, 2024 16:52:00 GMT -5
Thanks commond for clarifying .There are a lot of things flying around at once. Often we are talking about different things, when we think it's about the same thing.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 26, 2024 16:52:57 GMT -5
DC would have continued with it's best sellers, Marvel might never have done them. Contrary to what Stan has said Superheroes were not his doing. I kind of get the feeling that DC at some point might have stagnated if not for Marvel. I'm not saying that Marvel/Timely created the Superhero or popularized them, but I think Marvel kind of gave Superheroes a broader appeal than just purely "kids wish fulfillment fantasy" stuff Maybe not in the Silver Age, but into the 70s that is true. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 26, 2024 17:20:50 GMT -5
I'd think Jack would have to pick up on some of Stan's rhythms, even if subconsciously. The 4th World stuff was also modelled on real people, at different levels (like Mark Moonrider being based on Mark Evanier, or Mister Miracle being inspired by Steranko's career as an escapologist). So, they may be somewhat informed by their model. Kirby also works in broad strokes on New Gods, specifically, so there is the influence of mythology and opera, in the storytelling and possibly characterization. Highfather is very much Moses, in The Ten Commandments, to me, though Kirby may be drawing more traditionally than that, given his faith. Darkseid is said to be everyone who ever did harm to Kirby or did evil, so there is Hitler in there and there are crooked publishers and politicians, etc. It's also a war and Kirby has the hardened veterans and the young idealists, as he would have seen both sides.
In terms of the dialogue, I would think he picked up some things from Stan, to add to the years working with Joe Simon (if you read Simon & Kirby's stuff, a lot reads like some of Kirby's 70s stuff, especially his humorous bits. He also was working with some young assistants, his kids were young, he had young comic fans coming to see him....their voices factored into things, to a certain extent.
I don't think you can work with someone for an extended period of time and not pick up on how they approach their work. I know my colleagues and when something is off with them, or how they handle certain things I am dealing with or their work vs someone else. Just as Kirby picked up things working for Will Eisner and with Joe Simon, he had to pick up things from Stan Lee, whether he would admit to it or not, due to conflict and ego. If nothing else, from his editorial approach, if not his scripting. The fact that those works don't sound like Stan is down to Kirby not being Stan and not having Stan do it. It is Kirby trying to emulate it, or incorporate it or even contrast with it. Kirby was too vital for too long not to continue to earn and pick things up from collaborators and contemporaries.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 26, 2024 17:29:11 GMT -5
I’d sure like to see some examples of Jack Kirby being influenced by Stan Lee in the 1970s. I mean specific examples, from the comics themselves.
Because I just don’t buy it. Not even for a second.
Kirby had a very long career that had little to do with Stan Lee until his return to Marvel in 1959.
Kirby produced hundreds of pages every year from his start in the late 1930s. And you’d have to read a lot of it, to see the depth and width of his earlier work, to make any credible claims that Lee had any substantial influence on him from the period where they worked together in the 1960s.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 26, 2024 17:42:48 GMT -5
The long form operatic story that the New Gods was, is something Stan never attempted. If anything Stan constained Kirby when he worked towards that, like with Galactus, the Silver Surfer, the Inhumans and Him. There are stories of Stan telling Jack to make the stories more conventional.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jun 26, 2024 18:25:01 GMT -5
The long form operatic story that the New Gods was, is something Stan never attempted. If anything Stan constained Kirby when he worked towards that, like with Galactus, the Silver Surfer, the Inhumans and Him. There are stories of Stan telling Jack to make the stories more conventional. There was also emphasis over time towards the end of the 60's to stop making continuous stories at Marvel which was incredibly short-sighted, but understandable considering that Marvel didn't want some kid picking it up in the middle of the saga |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 26, 2024 18:34:37 GMT -5
So, I've been reading some of Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown stories and while there are obvious similarities with The Fantastic Four, especially the origin story in FF #1, there seems to be a major difference besides the fact that Challengers wasn't a superhero comic. There is very little characterization in Challengers of the Unknown. You could swap the word balloons with any of the characters and it wouldn't make a difference. The only way to tell them apart at times is their hair color, and they all act the same. There are very few auxiliary characters and their presence is largely superficial. DC was keeping their comics pretty well bland during this period, though June Robbins does most of the bickering with them - though they keep it very sanitized. There IS conflict in Challengers of the Unknown but you have to read between the lines, as that wasn't DC's way to do things then. 100% wholesome in 1956. Read Kirby's pre-Code 'Boys Ranch' or 'Boy Commandos'. Reed, Ben and Johnny come directly from Scrapper-Gabby-Big Words in Newsboy Legion. Originally Kirby wrote the 'bickering' between the team in FF as deadly serious (Ben wanting to kill the others in the first issue) but Stan's glib Millie the Model dialogue toned it down and made it more jokey. It mirrors Rocky trying to kill the others (again you almost have to read between the lines in the DC comic) when he gains superpowers (Invisibility, the power to shoot flames from his hands, etc.) in a later issue. Kirby also had a team of 'bickering' astronauts in his 'Race to the Moon' series for Harvey, pre-Marvel, post-COTU.   I find it hard to believe that Jack came up with the characterization of the Fantastic Four without any input from others. It doesn't mesh with what he was doing on Challengers. Again, read Newsboy Legion. It's all there. And then the Monster stories. It's a mix. Bizarre to me that people find it hard to see, and yet Stan Lee did nothing even close to this for 20 years to compare and people believe HE came up with it I'm not even 100% sure that Jack liked the way the FF were characterized through Stan's dialogue given how often it was shoehorned in or contradicted what Kirby had drawn on the page. I would love to know who came up with The Thing. As I've said before, I consider him one of the great characters of the Silver Age and his tragic story is the kind of thing that made Marvel stories different. There is a ton of Jack in there, for sure, with the cigars, the Yancy Street Boys, and everything, but the pathos and tragedy, was that more Jack or Stan? I once read a fantastic article (pun intended) about how their different world views shaped the contrasting ways in how they told the FF stories. Another thing that stood out to me about these Challengers comics is that for all the talk about Stan not giving Jack enough credit, there is literally ZERO credit for Jack on these stories. If I were a kid buying comics in the late 50s for the first time, I'd have no idea who Jack Kirby was. No matter how cynical people get about the credit Stan gave Jack in the credits, captions, letter pages and Bullpen Bulletins, at least comic book readers knew who Jack was. Jack Kirby was a HUGE star in the Golden Age of Comics. He was one of the first creators ever listed on the front of a comic. With Joe Simon they sold MILLIONS of copies of the early Captain America, Newsboy Legion, and their Romance line of comics that they introduced as a genre into comics. And it's not about Stan giving 'credit' to Jack. Lee gave Jack SPECIFIC credit, to DISCREDIT him as the writer and be able to steal the pay for it. This isn't speculation. Read the testimony from the trial (what's not redacted of it by Marvel). FWIW, the stories are okay. I early Showcase stories aren't very good, though I liked the one about the vials that created different monsters. The backup story where the Challengers suddenly become pets for a boy alien was derivative but enjoyable. Kirby's art doesn't really look like the Kirby I'm familiar with except in flashes, but it's fine. There's some confusion over who wrote the stories. The splash pages are very Kirby-esque n terms of the dialogue above the story title. I don't really see Stan swiping from this. I feel like he was more inclined to swipe from Arnold Drake than Challengers. No one claims Stan 'swiped' from it. It was Kirby's ideas he took writing/creator credit for. Challenger's isn't 'exactly' like the Fantastic Four - it's a PROTOTYPE. |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 26, 2024 18:37:46 GMT -5
I often wonder what Timely would have been like if Kirby hadn't decided to come back and try to steer a sinking ship. Comics (or at least the long-underwear variety) might have ceased to exist DC would have continued with it's best sellers, Marvel might never have done them. Contrary to what Stan has said Superheroes were not his doing. Correct. Fandom had already begun - Fanzines about the Golden Age of DC heroes had already begun. It was batman with a prime time TV show in the 60's and Superman with a Mainstream movie in the 70's, NOT Marvel. Comics would've existed just fine. |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 26, 2024 18:56:37 GMT -5
I don't think Kirby dialogued the Challengers stories despite him saying at various points that he did everything by himself. The only part of the stories that sounds Kirby-like are the intros above the splash page titles. The rest is fairly generic. Later on, when he left Marvel and was doing the dialogue himself on the DC books, he wasn't shy about emulating Stan's style when it suited him. According to Mark Evanier, Dave Wood scripted the Challengers, starting with the second story and the first was likely Simon & Kirby, together, though with Jack doing most of it. Wood also scripted Kirby's Sky Masters comic strip, along with his brother Dick. They were unrelated to Wally Wood, who inked Kirby on the strips. Wally did ink Kirby on 5 issues of The Challengers of the Unknown. Dave Wood was never around for the Sky Masters newspaper strip. Other than finding inkers Kirby was on his own with it. Wood might've re-wrtten or sanitized Kirby's dialogue in COTU, but the stories are nothing like anything he ever did in his entire career. Again - Kirby does great comics and has success and it's because of Joe Simon! Then - Kirby does great comics and has success and it's because Dave Wood wrote it! Then - Kirby does great comics and has success and it's because of Stan Lee! Then - Kirby does great comics and has success and it's... he had to employ just an inker because he was tired of others taking credit for his work. Joe Simon's creative success in comics without Jack Kirby? Crickets. Stan Lee's creative success in comics before or after Jack Kirby? Crickets. Dave Wood? |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 26, 2024 19:03:42 GMT -5
I just don't see any evidence that Jack was moving in that sort of direction with his previous work. Again, if you read what Kirby did from 1954 through 1961 up to the FF, it's pretty plain to see. It ALL combined leads to the FF. If you read what Stan was doing from 1954 through 1961 up to the FF, you'll see smarty pants one liner dialogue and genre westerns with no unique characterizations. Even if Stan contributed a fair amount, I'm sure he just swiped a bunch of ideas from other comics or media. The point I was making about Kirby's dialogue once he started doing the DC books, and even when he returned to Marvel, was that it could sounds very Stan Lee-ish at times. There is a lot of weird stuff in Kirby's 70s work. Not only in the dialogue, but in his letters pages. Maybe he was a quirkier guy than he appeared in interviews. Maybe he was trying to be hip for the younger generation. I don't know. If others don't agree that Jack was influenced by Stan''s hyperbolic style, I'll leave it at that. Kirby being influenced by Lee's writing is... almost comical. Lee wasn't a writer. Kirby WAS. Kirby always had a sense of humor. Read his Fighting American with Joe Simon. Read his Newsboy Legion. The humor. The wise cracking dialogue. It's all there. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 26, 2024 19:58:53 GMT -5
According to Mark Evanier, Dave Wood scripted the Challengers, starting with the second story and the first was likely Simon & Kirby, together, though with Jack doing most of it. Wood also scripted Kirby's Sky Masters comic strip, along with his brother Dick. They were unrelated to Wally Wood, who inked Kirby on the strips. Wally did ink Kirby on 5 issues of The Challengers of the Unknown. Dave Wood was never around for the Sky Masters newspaper strip. Other than finding inkers Kirby was on his own with it. Wood might've re-wrtten or sanitized Kirby's dialogue in COTU, but the stories are nothing like anything he ever did in his entire career. Again - Kirby does great comics and has success and it's because of Joe Simon! Then - Kirby does great comics and has success and it's because Dave Wood wrote it! Then - Kirby does great comics and has success and it's because of Stan Lee! Then - Kirby does great comics and has success and it's... he had to employ just an inker because he was tired of others taking credit for his work. Joe Simon's creative success in comics without Jack Kirby? Crickets. Stan Lee's creative success in comics before or after Jack Kirby? Crickets. Dave Wood? I don't know if all that is specifically directed to my response or what I responded to; I merely repeated what Mark Evanier, a close friend nd collaborator of Kirby's said, in regards to who scripted Challengers of the Unknown. I will say, I am done with this thread. Life is too short. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 26, 2024 20:09:20 GMT -5
I don't feel like I've read enough Ditko to have a huge opinion of him... his Dr. Strange stuff is certainly unique and trippy, but I definitely like Romita's Spidey better. I'm not sure I've read anything else by him... I know he did some things but none of them every really grabbed my attention. I would say though that I feel like the character and personality of Spider-Man (which I would consider being more established by Lee's scripts than anything else) and his supporting cast had more to do with the popularity than the art and design.. unlike FF, where I think the sci fi concepts and plots were more of the attraction (and more influenced by the artist). Ditko wrote and drew his last 20 issues of Spider-Man without talking to Stan. Yet you think all the characters and personality were mostly Stan writing dialog to stories he sees for the first time after they are completed is primarily responsible? An instance of who was doing the characterization. Stan told Steve that they were getting letters that people hated J J Jameson and he was too mean to Peter. He wanted him toned down and more likable. Ditko argued that those reactions meant the readers were engaged emotionally with the charater and JJJ should stay as he was. So was it mainly Stan's dialog? But Stan still wrote the words, right? Those are what make the characters to a large extent. Yes, the look and such contribute, but as far as character goes I would say the dialogue does the heavy lifting. I'm not really a huge Spider-Man fan in any case, just commenting  |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 26, 2024 20:34:02 GMT -5
Ditko wrote and drew his last 20 issues of Spider-Man without talking to Stan. Yet you think all the characters and personality were mostly Stan writing dialog to stories he sees for the first time after they are completed is primarily responsible? An instance of who was doing the characterization. Stan told Steve that they were getting letters that people hated J J Jameson and he was too mean to Peter. He wanted him toned down and more likable. Ditko argued that those reactions meant the readers were engaged emotionally with the charater and JJJ should stay as he was. So was it mainly Stan's dialog? But Stan still wrote the words, right? Those are what make the characters to a large extent. Yes, the look and such contribute, but as far as character goes I would say the dialogue does the heavy lifting. I'm not really a huge Spider-Man fan in any case, just commenting Read Spider-Man #21. It cracks me up! Ditko was getting plot credit and Stan was doing the dialogue and both of them were making the most of it. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 26, 2024 21:25:59 GMT -5
Ditko wrote and drew his last 20 issues of Spider-Man without talking to Stan. Yet you think all the characters and personality were mostly Stan writing dialog to stories he sees for the first time after they are completed is primarily responsible? An instance of who was doing the characterization. Stan told Steve that they were getting letters that people hated J J Jameson and he was too mean to Peter. He wanted him toned down and more likable. Ditko argued that those reactions meant the readers were engaged emotionally with the charater and JJJ should stay as he was. So was it mainly Stan's dialog? But Stan still wrote the words, right? Those are what make the characters to a large extent. Yes, the look and such contribute, but as far as character goes I would say the dialogue does the heavy lifting. I'm not really a huge Spider-Man fan in any case, just commenting Not just the look and such. He was writing all the stories, deciding what all the characters did throughout. How they interacted. Giving Stan dialog notes in the margins. Ditko was solely responsible for all but the word balloons donecafter everything else was done. No the words weren't what largely make the characters. There are many times Stan s words get in the way. |
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Post by berkley on Jun 26, 2024 21:55:57 GMT -5
From what I understand, Kirby had always been a voracious reader with widespread interests so I don't find it strange that at some point he started channeling all that into his own comics creations. As for why there's nothing comparable to the Fourth World stuff in his earlier comics, I think there are many factors involved - lack of the right opportunity, perhaps, and also the fact that big, far-reaching concepts like this can often take years to incubate before they percolate up into the conscious planning stage. Also a few years of doing the heavily SF-influenced FF and the mythology-based Thor probably helped prepare him mentally and creatively to take on something like the New Gods.
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