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Post by kirby101 on Jun 30, 2024 8:31:04 GMT -5
But is anyone here doing that. Or just trying to place him as mainly and editor and dialog writer. He was not the creator of great ideas, he was not a great plotter. And trying to set the record straight that that was the work of others should not be seen as "just as bad" as stealing the credit for characters and books.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 30, 2024 9:53:50 GMT -5
But is anyone here doing that. Or just trying to place him as mainly and editor and dialog writer. He was not the creator of great ideas, he was not a great plotter. And trying to set the record straight that that was the work of others should not be seen as "just as bad" as stealing the credit for characters and books. It certainly seems that way to me, the minimization of Stan Lee's contributions and skills just seems like an extreme overreaction. It just feels akin to redressing a wrong by committing another and I question the usefulness of doing that, especially if one is trying to actually hold an honest dialog about the subject. Can it feel cathartic to turn the tables, especially when the falsehood was taken as gospel for so long(and still is for some people who are only casual fans)? Sure, I get that. But in the long term does that actually help one get their point across? I'd argue it doesn't, as good as it may feel it's still very obviously revisionist history and thus the argument then becomes about the extent in which you are bending reality to fit a narrative rather than the actual issue at hand which means what ever point you're trying to make just gets lost in the noise. Which is exactly why there are forty some odd pages of back and forth at this point. You don't get any of that kind of push back if you just stick to calm, cool objective statements like, " It's terrible that people like Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko didn't get the recognition and pay they deserved for the work they did" or "Despite the many provable lies Stan Lee told over the course of his life, he was a none the less a huge part of Marvel's success." The point that you don't buy into the old origin of the Marvel Universe lie gets across clearly and it's 100% objectively stated so no real arguments can be made against your style of argumentation which limits any chance of ugliness occurring.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 30, 2024 10:00:02 GMT -5
But, but, but ...Stan did give credit to Ditko and Kirby. From Stan Lee's autobiagraphy in 2002. Notice "co-creator is in quotes. And even then, he claims all the ideas, all the characters, all the concepts, originated with him and him alone. You are being so generous Stan. as you continue to steal from those who did the real creating. that is a pretty awful quote... especially since it's him trying to be nice.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jun 30, 2024 10:19:33 GMT -5
My contention is that "the concept of this new Daredevil being blind and having a radar-sense" were in fact not in place before work started: that Stan Lee did indeed come up with the radar-sense angle but that it came after Everett completed the pages, exactly contrary to what Confessor takes as a given. This gets to just the point I was trying to express: if we take as a given that all the key elements were in place before Stan's artists (in this case, Everett) did their work, it it's not surprising that someone says "I just don't see that in the artwork..." I think it's quite clear in the artwork that he is walking with the crook of the cane (where, presumably, the electronics are installed) pointing ahead of him (which, again, is absolutely not how someone who is blind or is trying to appear blind would carry it), and that the "pings" are all shown at the level of the cane, and emitting from the crook of the cane. Bottom line is, I think Everett gave Stan a story about a blind superhero acrobat, Stan decided it was too implausible and injected the radar-sense concept by tacking on some radioactive waste that wasn't part of Bill Everett's pages. I'm sorry, I just don't see those "pings" as coming from the cane: they look to be coming from Matt's body. As for not carrying his cane out in front of him, as blind folk do, that's surely to reinforce the idea to the reader that he doesn't need the cane because of his radar sense. I don't know….maybe you're right, but I just don't see any evidence of that being an electronic gizmo in the cane when Everett drew it. We know that Stan came up with Daredevil's radar sense in the brainstorming session with Everett prior to work commencing on Daredevil #1 because he said so in interviews. Now, you might say, "well, Stan was probably lying", but that is to automatically assume that Lee is the bad guy. Discounting everything that Lee said in interviews is not a neutral position from which to posit an alternate, revisionist theory from. And that's the thing: everything you've said above in defence of your theory above could just as easily be flipped on its head and read in an exactly opposite way. I think you're seeing what you want to see because you are down on Stan Lee. It's classic confirmation bias. Furthermore, your theory – along with many comments in this thread -- is based on the supposition that the artists were always right or that they can make no errors. It also supposes that they never lied or misremembered facts, whereas the truth is that the likes of Steve Ditko, Wally Wood and Jack Kirby either had a motive for downplaying Lee's participation years after the fact, were slightly weird themselves, or had addictions that clouded their memory and affected their mental health. Not that I entirely disbelieve them, of course; Stan did take a lot of credit for stuff he didn't do, that's pretty much an unassailable fact at this point. But, I think we must accept that the artists themselves were not infallible and may have sometimes misunderstood elements of the plot Lee had given them. Or maybe they had just screwed up the artwork on occasion? These were not machines; these were very talented human beings working in a pressured environment, with a lot of comic books to churn out month after month.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jun 30, 2024 10:27:15 GMT -5
It leads to Stan claiming he dreamed of ALL the ideas. titles, concepts and characters and then artist like Kirby and Ditko "help him out" is more than simply "bragging, it is pure BS and credit stealing. And that lead to great financial gain for Stan to the detriment of others. Brush that away all you want, but it is not a little thing. I don't think anyone here is saying it's a "little thing" though, I can't speak for everyone else here but personally I find the old "Stan created the Marvel Universe" to definitely be reprehensible, but I find the comments that try to swing the pendulum just as far the other way and minimize his role to nearly nothing to be just as bad. To be fair though, Stan didn't always say he created everything. He often outlined how important the artists were to the comics in the comics themselves (in Stan's soapbox or on the letters pages), and even in interviews he did in the '60s, '70s and '80s he would usually say that he co-created Spider-Man with Steve Ditko or co-created the Fantastic Four with Jack Kirby. Even in the recent Disney+ Stan lee documentary there is ample enough evidence of him saying that: it's right there in vintage audio recordings for all to hear. It's possible to be critical while still being objective. Absolutely! Which is kinda what I am trying to say to MWGgallaher above.
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Post by Confessor on Jun 30, 2024 10:40:00 GMT -5
But, but, but ...Stan did give credit to Ditko and Kirby. From Stan Lee's autobiagraphy in 2002. Notice "co-creator is in quotes. And even then, he claims all the ideas, all the characters, all the concepts, originated with him and him alone. You are being so generous Stan. as you continue to steal from those who did the real creating. that is a pretty awful quote... especially since it's him trying to be nice. It is a nasty quote. That quote of Lee's is actually in the Disney+ Stan Lee documentary, which I watched with my wife a couple of weeks ago (she isn't a comics fan at all, though she likes the Marvel movies). When Stan came out with, "Personally I think the idea is the thing, because an idea can be given to any artist", my wife winced and said, "that sounds really unkind. Like, any numpty could've done the job." I agreed with her -- especially since Stan had said earlier in the same documentary that Spider-Man needed Ditko to draw him because Kirby's take on the character was too heroic looking. Well then Stan, looks like not just any artist could do it (that's without mentioning that it was Ditko who came up with the iconic red and blue costume, the webshooters, the spider-signal etc).
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Post by Confessor on Jun 30, 2024 10:44:39 GMT -5
He was not the creator of great ideas, he was not a great plotter. Of course he was! Stan Lee had oodles of great ideas and wrote tonnes of great dialogue over his time at Marvel in the '60s. Did he do it all alone? No, of course not. The artists were at least as important. But to say that Lee wasn't a creator of great ideas is just plain incorrect.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 30, 2024 11:37:16 GMT -5
What’s your favorite Stan Lee story that he wrote before Kirby returned to Marvel in the late 1950s?
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Post by Confessor on Jun 30, 2024 12:22:25 GMT -5
What’s your favorite Stan Lee story that he wrote before Kirby returned to Marvel in the late 1950s? I'm not sure that I have ever read any. I'm not terribly interested in Golden Age comics, to be honest, as I don't tend to enjoy reading them. I just find them a little too basic. But if the inference of your question is to suggest that Lee didn't write any good stories before Kirby came back to Marvel in the late '50s, I would counter by saying that what I have read quite a lot of are Marvel's pre-Fantastic Four monster and sci-fi tales that Lee & Kirby put out. Though they certainly have a period charm and some nice artwork, I don't consider them to be very good or terribly memorable. As far as I'm concerned, the great and memorable Marvel comics didn't come along until Lee, supposedly on the brink of leaving comics, decided to shake things up for his own amusement, so that when Martin Goodman asked him to create a copy of Justice League of America, he created a dysfunctional group of bickering, flawed superheroes in the Fantastic Four. Obviously further greats followed like The Hulk, Thor etc, and Lee's best co-creation in my opinion, Spider-Man. But it was Lee and his idea to write flawed and more "realistic" superheroes that sparked the so-called Marvel Age of Comics on the '60s. No matter how much the artists may have also contributed to the success of those comics, without Lee's idea, Kirby, Ditko, Ayers, Wood et al would've likely continued to churn out forgettable monster and sci-fi tales.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 30, 2024 12:33:10 GMT -5
I don't think anyone here is saying it's a "little thing" though, I can't speak for everyone else here but personally I find the old "Stan created the Marvel Universe" to definitely be reprehensible, but I find the comments that try to swing the pendulum just as far the other way and minimize his role to nearly nothing to be just as bad. To be fair though, Stan didn't always say he created everything. He often outlined how important the artists were to the comics in the comics themselves (in Stan's soapbox or on the letters pages), and even in interviews he did in the '60s, '70s and '80s he would usually say that he co-created Spider-Man with Steve Ditko or co-created the Fantastic Four with Jack Kirby. Even in the recent Disney+ Stan lee documentary there is ample enough evidence of him saying that: it's right there in vintage audio recordings for all to hear. Since The Origins of Marvel Comics, Stan had claimed that all the original ideas and concepts were his, he even told those fables about how he came up with the FF, Thor, Spider-Man and even Dr Strange.
And Stan as the originator has been the corporate line since then. It doesn't matter if he credits the artists with "helping' him bring the characters to life, he came up with everything! As that quote shows. Sorry if you don't want to accept that as a blatant falsehood, but it just is.
Original ideas and concepts is very different than how a character developed as time went on. We have had discussions here about dialog vs plotting as far as that is concerned. There is good give and take on that.
But that has nothing to do with who thought it up, who conceived it, and who took credit for it for decades.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 30, 2024 12:35:45 GMT -5
He was not the creator of great ideas, he was not a great plotter. Of course he was! Stan Lee had oodles of great ideas and wrote tonnes of great dialogue over his time at Marvel in the '60s. Did he do it all alone? No, of course not. The artists were at least as important. But to say that Lee wasn't a creator of great ideas is just plain incorrect. Could you name some of those great ideas that were his, not Kirby's or Ditko's or another artist?
As I said, dialog is not concept. Read my previous post.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 30, 2024 12:39:38 GMT -5
What’s your favorite Stan Lee story that he wrote before Kirby returned to Marvel in the late 1950s? I'm not sure that I have ever read any. I'm not terribly interested in Golden Age comics, to be honest, as I don't tend to enjoy reading them. I just find them a little too basic. But if the inference of your question is to suggest that Lee didn't write any good stories before Kirby came back to Marvel in the late '50s, I would counter by saying that what I have read quite a lot of are Marvel's pre-Fantastic Four monster and sci-fi tales that Lee & Kirby put out. Though they certainly have a period charm and some nice artwork, I don't consider them to be very good or terribly memorable. As far as I'm concerned, the great and memorable Marvel comics didn't come along until Lee, supposedly on the brink of leaving comics, decided to shake things up for his own amusement, so that when Martin Goodman asked him to create a copy of Justice League of America, he created a dysfunctional group of bickering, flawed superheroes in the Fantastic Four. Obviously further greats followed like The Hulk, Thor etc, and Lee's best co-creation in my opinion, Spider-Man. But it was Lee and his idea to write flawed and more "realistic" superheroes that sparked the so-called Marvel Age of Comics on the '60s. No matter how much the artists may have also contributed to the success of those comics, without Lee's idea, Kirby, Ditko, Ayers, Wood et al would've likely continued to churn out forgettable monster and sci-fi tales. This is not what happened, this is the Stan Lee Origin's myth. He was not on the brink of leaving comics, Marvel was on the brink of closing down.
I can't really discuss this further, if we are going to treat the Stan Lee "Origins' myths as if they real.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 30, 2024 12:40:21 GMT -5
That's not exactly the knock out punch you seem to think it is as I have no problem handing out a little bit of a hot take here: I alluded to it earlier when I said the only Spider-Man run I've ever really enjoyed was Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man run, but that sentiment applies to nearly all the comics from the 60's as well. Probably the only Stan Lee comic I've ever read for pleasure is Silver Surfer: Parable, nearly every other Marvel work from the 60's was near unreadable to me and I've read and appreciated them almost entirely solely for their historical importance. And that extends to the art as well as for every panel of beautiful Kirby Crackle or Ditko's weird, psychedelic lay outs in Doctor Strange there are ten others that I feel are largely a bit stilted and flat for my tastes.
That said, I appreciate their place in comics history and can see where the techniques they were developing paved the way for books I do enjoy. And even without "enjoying" their work, I see no reason to minimize their importance in any way. There just isn't any objective reason to try and deduce if either party was greater or more important to the finished product than the other as no one here has any objective first hand knowledge of the creation of these books.
I think my ask would be, " What do you hope to get from downplaying Lee's contributions?"
Because I honestly don't understand where you think that get's you, other than some kind of cathartic release I just don't see any logical reason to go beyond expressing that the artists were assuredly down played and denied proper compensation for their work and leaving it at that. How does minimizing Lee's work make that point stronger or more clear?
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 30, 2024 12:58:26 GMT -5
Of course he was! Stan Lee had oodles of great ideas and wrote tonnes of great dialogue over his time at Marvel in the '60s. Did he do it all alone? No, of course not. The artists were at least as important. But to say that Lee wasn't a creator of great ideas is just plain incorrect. Could you name some of those great ideas that were his, not Kirby's or Ditko's or another artist?
As I said, dialog is not concept. Read my previous post.
And this is what I mean by a complete lack of objective first hand knowledge as you cannot with any real objective certainty say what concepts from these early Marvel stories were solely based on the ideas of the various artists with out any input of Stan Lee. There may be instances where it certainly appears that way, but objectively? We simply don't really know and attempting to imply more than "Stan Lee certainly didn't come up with these ideas whole cloth all by himself and the artists deserve much more credit than they received." just seems futile. What does it get you to go beyond that if you can't support it objectively? It's a line of reasoning that is just so easy to punch holes in that it makes no sense to try and even trot it out.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 30, 2024 13:11:15 GMT -5
Input is not coming up with ideas. Of course if he wrote the captions and dialog that shaped the books. The question is not "Stan Lee did nothing" and to continue to argue that people say that, is not discussing what we are saying. We are saying all Stan Lees claims that he came up with the original concept, with no input from anyone, whether it was a fly on the wall, his wife telling him to do something great, his love of the Mandrake comic strip, are all total BS. Yes, certainly Stan Lee did not come up with these ideas from whole cloth, as he claimed, as Marvel/Disney still claims, is objectively false.
There have literally been books written about this in recent years that have the proof.
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