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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 13, 2024 22:27:50 GMT -5
I think alot of the reason comics that are coming out today seem a bit 'blah' to alot of us long time fans is that, do to alot of marketing/industry factors, both Marvel and DC tend to put their characters 'back in the box' at the end of the run and start over again, and things never stray too far from the baseline.
As a result, I feel like after 50,60,70 years for some characters worth of stories, there's not alot left to do. Every now and then we still get something like Immortal Hulk or McKay's Moon Knight, but mostly it all feels like same old to me.
So my question to y'all is,what stories are left that you want to see? The trick is it has to fit the 'modern' sensibility of protecting the IP, so no actual changes, just the illusion of change that is what happens these days.
I'll start with my wish for Tony Stark. They torn him down and built him back up a million times, but never have they had him work for someone else. He doesn't have much money at the moment, so instead of him just suddenly being rich again when they're done with him being poor, i'd like to see him actually have a job... I'm picturing something like Horizon labs in Slott's Spider-Man run. I feel like you could get some of the corporate 80s vibes I enjoyed but with a different spin on them... maybe even add in a non-super hero girlfriend. (that has been done but not for a LONG time)
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 14, 2024 0:40:04 GMT -5
I think alot of the reason comics that are coming out today seem a bit 'blah' to alot of us long time fans is that, do to alot of marketing/industry factors, both Marvel and DC tend to put their characters 'back in the box' at the end of the run and start over again, and things never stray too far from the baseline. As a result, I feel like after 50,60,70 years for some characters worth of stories, there's not alot left to do. Every now and then we still get something like Immortal Hulk or McKay's Moon Knight, but mostly it all feels like same old to me. So my question to y'all is,what stories are left that you want to see? The trick is it has to fit the 'modern' sensibility of protecting the IP, so no actual changes, just the illusion of change that is what happens these days. I'll start with my wish for Tony Stark. They torn him down and built him back up a million times, but never have they had him work for someone else. He doesn't have much money at the moment, so instead of him just suddenly being rich again when they're done with him being poor, i'd like to see him actually have a job... I'm picturing something like Horizon labs in Slott's Spider-Man run. I feel like you could get some of the corporate 80s vibes I enjoyed but with a different spin on them... maybe even add in a non-super hero girlfriend. (that has been done but not for a LONG time) Naw....barista at Starbucks, pulling espresso shots for caffeine junkies, who talk like Robert Downey Jr!
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 14, 2024 4:45:48 GMT -5
I think I would like an ongoing title that has stories about romance with just the superheroes of Marvel or DC.
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Post by driver1980 on Mar 14, 2024 7:20:25 GMT -5
I’m bored with constant renumbering (who even knows how many ‘first issues’ of Daredevil there have been in the last ten years?) and reboots. Which is why I don’t bother with Marvel outside classic stuff on Marvel Unlimited. And legacy numbering is a case of eating your cake and then still wanting to have it too. They don’t even know how to do illusion of change now.
But as for greatest stories never told? Surely there are some never-before-seen confrontations to be done. I can’t say they’ve ever happened, but search engines are usually good, and I can’t find any record of rumbles such as these:
Fantastic Four vs Juggernaut X-Men vs Dr Octopus Defenders vs Galactus Captain America vs Sinister Six
Or even villain vs villain encounters, such as Doctor Doom vs Mandarin. What about Dormammu vs Nightmare, or Kang vs Mephisto?
It isn’t just about WWE-style punch-ups, either, I am also thinking of stories. I’d like to see Bruce Banner meet Dr Curt Connors. Perhaps Banner seeks out Connors as Connors has kept his Lizard persona in check for years, so Banner figures Connors can assist him with his Hulk problem - only for things to go wrong, leading to a Hulk/Lizard confrontation.
But, no, let’s have yet another X-Men vs Magneto arc, or “Symbiote Clone Saga Apocalypse War of the Realms IV”.
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Post by commond on Mar 14, 2024 7:31:13 GMT -5
While there are advantages to serials that end, I don't believe that you can't write interesting stories with existing characters. Whether it sells and gets the support it deserves is another story, but I do want to touch on the point about putting the characters back in the box. I don't know if it's comic book courtesy or a way for creative teams to ensure that their work isn't retconned but at least it provides some closure. An interesting concept that came up in a Marvel book I was reading lately was referring to the reboots as seasons. Since modern comics draw so much inspiration from television, it makes the resets easier to understand.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Mar 14, 2024 8:24:43 GMT -5
Bring back anthologies like Batman LOTDK or Elseworlds. You can tell all kinds of stories if the reader knows that this story has no effect on continuity. Also publisher crossovers tend to have zero effect on either party's continuity in their respective universes. That being said I would love to see Hellboy and team square up with the Aliens.
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Post by driver1980 on Mar 14, 2024 8:33:45 GMT -5
As a kid, it didn’t put me off reading, say, Batman #400. I also am not sure why comicbook publishers feel they need to copy TV, but I know people’s mileage varies.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 14, 2024 11:18:53 GMT -5
As a kid, it didn’t put me off reading, say, Batman #400. I also am not sure why comicbook publishers feel they need to copy TV, but I know people’s mileage varies. Because the audience is exponentially greater. Not being a smart-ass; it just is. Comic publishers have always followed what is popular and film and newspaper strips were their original sources (and pulp magazines, as most of the publishers started there), then film and television. They didn't start eating their own tale until the first wave of fans entered the business. Even then, they were always chasing what was big at the cinema or on tv.
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Post by driver1980 on Mar 14, 2024 12:55:45 GMT -5
Have there been any increases in sales, though? I can understand them chasing that audience if it has led to an increase in sales, but part of me thinks that mindset (from the industry, not from you) is akin to Vince Russo’s strawman of “chase the casual wrestling audience”.
We can only go by the circles we mix in, but as far as people I have spoken with, who came to Marvel via the MCU, when I’ve asked, not one of them has expressed any interest when I’ve encouraged them to check out the comics. One friend watched the various MCU films in order over the last 6 months or so, yet when I asked him if he’d consider checking out the comics, he wasn’t interested.
Long-term fans like those on this forum will embrace overlap, but I am just wondering, if the “TV viewer who might check out a Marvel comic” is akin to Russo’s strawman. Is there any evidence of it?
Asking questions as much as making statements here, always happy to learn.
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Post by MDG on Mar 14, 2024 13:16:53 GMT -5
Have there been any increases in sales, though? I can understand them chasing that audience if it has led to an increase in sales, but part of me thinks that mindset (from the industry, not from you) is akin to Vince Russo’s strawman of “chase the casual wrestling audience”. We can only go by the circles we mix in, but as far as people I have spoken with, who came to Marvel via the MCU, when I’ve asked, not one of them has expressed any interest when I’ve encouraged them to check out the comics. One friend watched the various MCU films in order over the last 6 months or so, yet when I asked him if he’d consider checking out the comics, he wasn’t interested. Long-term fans like those on this forum will embrace overlap, but I am just wondering, if the “TV viewer who might check out a Marvel comic” is akin to Russo’s strawman. Is there any evidence of it? Asking questions as much as making statements here, always happy to learn. There might have been a "casual comics audience" at one time, but it'll be hard to serve. The first Burton Batman led to a mini-boom in interest in comics--though nowhere near what the TV show did--but it didn't last. By the time the first X-Men movie came around, there was barely a ripple in sales.
One big reason is: how many "casual readers" of any kind of magazine exist?
Another is: Is this Batman (or Thor, or Ms. Marvel, or Aquaman) the same character I just watched? It seems different.
Another is: Is this book missing pages? I don't know what's going on or what these people are talking about.
Another is: Why did that guy in the Avengers T-Shirt start hyperventilating when I folded back the cover of this comic?
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Post by driver1980 on Mar 14, 2024 13:37:55 GMT -5
I’m glad you asked how many casual readers of any kind of magazine exist.
Former WWF writer Vince Russo is forever asking why WWE, which is a profitable company, isn’t chasing the ‘casual fan’. His strawman (IMO) is that there exists this casual wrestling fan who needs to be persuaded to give WWE a go. I’m not sure WWE should be chasing casual fans, any more than, say, HBO or Kellogg’s Cereal should be. Isn’t concentrating on the fans you have more important?
I’ve heard people some say that these ‘number one’ issues are to attract new readers, but I’d love to see evidence that a) these people exist (some might), and b) the ‘casual fan’ who would buy such an issue stays on board.
Is the idea of a casual fan/reader/viewer a strawman?
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 14, 2024 13:49:55 GMT -5
The casual comics audience that MDG mentions existed when there were casual audiences for many aspects of popular culture, in the days when there was a mass culture. In these days, even culture is balkanized into far smaller niches than ever before and it is simple to avoid being aware of, let alone influenced by, even the most popular of pop culture. Thus, people can be fans of MU movies who have no idea of the comics. Even in the 60s, when we were seeing an ever increasing split between the generations, teenagers and adults could not live entirely in their own silos; you couldn't avoid being exposed somehow to the vastness of American culture. There were only a few television networks and stations, and most families only had one set; shows like Ed Sullivan's -- variety shows -- were aimed at pleasing everyone in every broadcast. (Today, we "narrowcast.") When the Beatles made their final appearance on the Sullivan show in 1965, they shared the stage with Cilla Black, Soupy Sales, Allen and Rossi, and Fantasio the Magician! (Sounds more like the line-up at a county fair.) There were more movies aimed at drawing wider audiences, too, and people actually went outside of their homes to go the movies; so too, there were many magazines, like Reader's Digest, LIFE, TIME and LOOK, and even Sports Illustrated, that had something for everyone in every issue. There were niches, of course, but they were far more broadly defined. Nowadays, the niches have shrunk so small that it's tough to squeeze yourself into one even if you want to give it a try.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 14, 2024 14:18:28 GMT -5
I’m glad you asked how many casual readers of any kind of magazine exist. Former WWF writer Vince Russo is forever asking why WWE, which is a profitable company, isn’t chasing the ‘casual fan’. His strawman (IMO) is that there exists this casual wrestling fan who needs to be persuaded to give WWE a go. I’m not sure WWE should be chasing casual fans, any more than, say, HBO or Kellogg’s Cereal should be. Isn’t concentrating on the fans you have more important? I’ve heard people some say that these ‘number one’ issues are to attract new readers, but I’d love to see evidence that a) these people exist (some might), and b) the ‘casual fan’ who would buy such an issue stays on board. Is the idea of a casual fan/reader/viewer a strawman? Here's the thing; you can't have growth without a new audience. That applies to any kind of medium; so, even the WWE has to attract someone other than the established audience,. Failing that, they can only increase revenue by trying to wring more and more out of their existing audience; but, there comes a saturation point and then you start losing your audience. S, inevitably, your audience will start to shrink, without new blood; either your existing audience just leaves or they age out. That was the death of many territories, in wrestling, before the WWF expansion. Places like Indianapolis and Detroit just kept doing the same thing, for the same audience and some got tired and stopped watching and attending matches and others just got old and died or outgrew their interest. Younger fans didn't seem to care for their product, so parents didn't take them to the shows. The end result was that they went out of business on their own, though Cable sped things up, a bit, by offering a better product. Comics were the same way. By the 1970s, young kids had other entertainments and more affordable ones and comics weren't replacing the readers they lost. Add to that fewer newsstands carrying comics, because the retailer profit was much smaller, compared to adult magazines (not skin mags, but those bought by adults) and they just didn't bother with comics. They were in desperate straits until they got an influx of interest from Star Wars, at Marvel, and the Superman film, at DC. That combined with a new distribution system that allowed them to sell to specialty retailers, on a non-returnable basis, meaning guaranteed sales, based on the retailer's orders. They could better target series to the audience and get quicker feedback and increase profitability by not having to over-print, as with newsstand distribution. Comic shops allowed for "remainders" to be available beyond the original lifespan of the issue, at discount or collectible prices, depending on demand. That saved comics from near-death, by most accounts at DC and Marvel (Harvey was in really bad shape, and Charlton was all but dead and Gold Key was getting there, with Archie maintaining a small, but steady presence on newsstands and supermarkets). So, the companies turned more and more of their publication over to that system, but at the expense of appealing to a broader market. It proved more viable, in the short term, but a death sentence, in the long run, without attracting a new audience. Manga was able to capture that younger audience, for a while, but their sales aren't what they once were, either; just stronger than American publishers, with that demographic; plus, YA book publishing snapped up the rest, who read for entertainment. Video games took away a certain segment of youth audience, home video a bit and the internet much of the rest. Regardless of whether you are appealing to a wide audience or a niche audience, you have to excite them about your product and get them to putdown their money on it. Sometimes, that means taking chances, which is not something that big conglomerates contemplate, unless their situation is getting desperate and they have nothing to lose. DC was in that position in the late 70s, which helped Jenette Kahn implement a lot of changes, to incentivize creative work and innovation. She was willing to take risks, because they had nowhere to go, but up. Marvel did, too, but not to as wide an extent and some of their initiatives were in reaction to DC. The WWF, in the mid-late 90s was having major problems drawing and was losing talent to better offers. Vince took a gamble and shook up the organization and backed a new star, in Steve Austin and saw a massive upswing in business and became competitive again and then destroyed his competition (which was more of a murder-suicide, as WCW was cutting their own throat; Vince just helped sharpen the knife).
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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 14, 2024 15:38:58 GMT -5
I have an idea for a series about Medusa set in the 1960s.
She escapes from the Great Refuge because she doesn’t want to marry Maximus the Mad. And then she has adventures in Europe as the series explores Silver Age Marvel characters who are associated with Europe. Like Count Nefaria and the Maggia. And all those Russian characters who ended up in the Iron Man series, like the Black Widow and the Crimson Dynamo.
Getting away from established Marvel characters, It might also be neat to have a story arc set in Rome with Medusa getting involved with the Italian film industry and meeting a character based on Fellini and having a short film career in Europe.
And eventually, she ends up living in a cave on a Greek island where she’s discovered by the Wizard and recruited for the Frightful Four.
Michael Allred would be the best artist for this.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 14, 2024 16:25:38 GMT -5
I think alot of the re-numbering is how our culture has changed... my kids are horrified at the thought of not watching a show from the beginning.. they would never casually check out a random episode of something, as many did back in the day of cable televison.
That concept applies to comics as well... if you can't start 'from the beginning' most people under 40 won't even think about trying it out. Hence, as many starting points as possible. Perhaps that's why they can get away with recycling stories, alot of the current market doesn't know better, like the old 'readers age out in 6 years' or whatever it was that DC in the Silver Age thought.
Another thing I would really like to see is a super hero team being legitimately pro-active... like a superhero team using their powers to help an inner city area, then perhaps dealing with the after effects. I feel like that sort of thing has been danced around a couple times but never attempted.
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