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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2024 14:49:20 GMT -5
You know, putting What If?… aside, because Marvel could only tell the tales they wanted in that kind of book, I did hate how comics went down the path of designating Earths for this and that, an Earth for mainstream Marvel stuff, an Earth for the Spidey/Transformers team-up, an Earth for the early DC/Marvel crossovers, etc. It seemed to suck the joy out of it. Earth-One and Earth-Two are a whole different ball game, but as far as Marvel and DC are concerned, did we need designations for the aforementioned tales? It was fun seeing Spidey show up in a Transformers comic, and I was in awe of those early DC/Marvel crossovers. I didn’t over-think it as a kid or an adult. It all simply happened as presented.It was totally fun, and Marvel addressed the continuity question later in the letters column of that series with something to the tune of "the story's non-canon, don't worry about it". They didn't care to have it make sense, we didn't need to either. My theory is the average reading age trending older over the years. Younger kids tend to take in the world, including comic book fantasy, with awe and wonder and things are fresh and fun. As readers trend older, I think some (though certainly not all) feel like they need to lose that outlook and somehow get more "serious" about things. Sometimes I feel like this feeds losing sight of the basic storytelling and becoming continuity police, or trying to seem "nonchalant" about still enjoying more light-hearted content. The hyper-developed multiverses and continuity structures in modern times have taken things to absurd levels IMO. My general thought is, a good story is by far the most important thing, and while there are times continuity can be effective to weave a broader lore, it only serves that purpose to the extent the storytelling itself does not suffer. Or said another way, continuity should never get in the way of a really fun tale to be told (similar to what others have said here). |
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Post by driver1980 on Apr 13, 2024 17:01:22 GMT -5
You and spoon make valid points. I mean, as dismayed as I was about Superboy being wiped from the mythos after Crisis (pocket universe aside), it didn’t invalidate all of those pre- Crisis Superboy stories that were such fun. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 13, 2024 17:06:56 GMT -5
You and spoon make valid points. I mean, as dismayed as I was about Superboy being wiped from the mythos after Crisis (pocket universe aside), it didn’t invalidate all of those pre- Crisis Superboy stories that were such fun. Except in the minds of those who thought they were eradicating them and thus purifying the DC Universe. 😄 |
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Post by Marv-El on Apr 13, 2024 17:44:10 GMT -5
Here's an image that was on the net.  Somehow I've always thought that Hulk was larger, more massive than Ben. He's barely that here and I find it off-putting. Speaking of Byrne & non-canon stories & 'Old Superman', I've never read any of his Generations minis with Superman & Batman aging in real time. Were any of those good? |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 13, 2024 17:46:06 GMT -5
Why did the anal retentive OCD continuity cops have to take over? Because it was the anal retentive OCD continuity cops who became the new writers and editors of the superhero funnybooks. So that's what they wrote and what they demanded as editors. And as a result, the only people who kept reading those funnybooks were other anal retentive OCD continuity cops. |
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 13, 2024 17:57:24 GMT -5
You'd think with all the variations, Number Ones, and reboots of the same titles and characters that seem to be endemic in Marvel and DC comics today that they could have used that opportunity to simply put out different lines of comics devoted to different takes on characters rather than trying to force-feed old continuities together into one new one or simply redo the older versions with the slightest of changes. You like "Old Superman"? Buy the "Old Superman" line with stories set in the past. You like Wally West Flash? Read the Modern (?) Age Flash line. After all, there have been different takes on all kinds of characters that appear on the heels of a previous version and even simultaneously,from Dracula and the other monsters to Sherlock Holmes, Zorro, and Doc Savage. And guess what? As with the multiple-Earth concept, it turns out that fans can keep it all straight. Couldn't they have done something similar with comics? I mean, DC had kids' versions of the heroes back in the mid-90s that my two boys loved. And I enjoyed them too. Especially amidst the dark, grim 'n' gritty swill that the "grown-up" comics had become. At DC, Elseworlds and other one-shots seemed to be doing that, but they only showed up as one-shots. I'll never understand why there was such a reluctance to do what they'd done in the early Silver Age and simply create new versions of the characters with enough of a link to the past that they weren't entirely new, but different enough to make sense in a new world. Why did the anal retentive OCD continuity cops have to take over? I don't think this is "just an observation". This sounds more like a "there I said it".
I think we need to have clear guidelines on what is a "there I said it" what is a "comic tidbit" and what is "just an observation". If not, chaos will ensue! There I said it. Oh shit, wrong thread! What? You think OCD anal retention only pertains to comics?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 13, 2024 18:04:52 GMT -5
I greatly enjoy good continuity, but, OTOH, its easy for stories to drown in the past... there's a happy medium that I think has always been difficult to achieve.
Like, I love in old silver age books when there's a big crisis in New York and reed richards calls Avengers Mansion for help (and they are inevitably too busy). Even in DC the whole 'Superman is busy in space' thing when they didn't want him to overwhelm JLA stories was nice.
Then. of course. there are good stories to be told that build on previous ones... when characters can grow and change based on their experience is really when continuity is the best.
The trick for superhero comics at this point is there's simply too much of it. Keeping it going for so long is not possible unless you're going to allow characters to age and die and news ones to take their place, which isn't a choice it today's world of IPs being the most important aspect of the comic.
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Apr 13, 2024 18:47:03 GMT -5
Here's an image that was on the net. Somehow I've always thought that Hulk was larger, more massive than Ben. He's barely that here and I find it off-putting. Speaking of Byrne & non-canon stories & 'Old Superman', I've never read any of his Generations minis with Superman & Batman aging in real time. Were any of those good? I really enjoyed the first Generations mini when it was first published. Haven't revisited in 20 + years, and I'm no longer anywhere near as enamoured with Byrne now mind you. The sequels were mostly diminishing returns from what I recall, especially the ongoing series, or 12 issues or whatever it was. I suggest reading the first Generations. A lot of fun history bits and interesting ideas, although it does get quite dark, and as a result has some tone consistency issues |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2024 6:59:29 GMT -5
A few more random musings...
I find it interesting when I reflect back on the olden days of Marvel that if say a fan wrote a letter pointing out a seeming continuity inconsistency, if deemed truly a "mistake" they would get awarded a No Prize and we'd all smile and move on. Nowadays I think there would be a team of editors quickly assigning a branching continuity, adding a new numeric designation, updating charts, etc. And certain fans quick to scrutinize how all that was handled.
I don't know...when late 70's Kal was introduced as a small tot to comics through Spider-Man, somehow simultaneously reading the early Lee/Ditko run by way of Pocket Book reprints, the main current titles off the newsstand, the Spidey Super Stories version, and then also watching the 60's cartoon reruns, I didn't need a roadmap. It was all Spider-Man somehow, you just kicked back and enjoyed the ride.
It's another reason I love Alex Ross...the guy's like "I'll do whatever project I feel like" and the only "continuity" is his personal vision of the best of old histories. Call it Elseworlds, What If, Out of Continuity, Imaginary Story, Alternate Universe...I just call it a comic. Continuity is more of a loose "wouldn't it be cool if we created this connection back to an earlier event" in my mind because it adds to the ongoing storytelling versus some precise "audit" that must categorize everything (or the needless deus ex machina of DC trying to declare "everything" canon now as I understand it).
The only thing I'm sure of is that comics make no sense in any aspect if you try to rationalize too much, and why should they. There's a reason it's called "escapism".
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Post by james on Apr 14, 2024 7:24:50 GMT -5
Here's an image that was on the net. Somehow I've always thought that Hulk was larger, more massive than Ben. He's barely that here and I find it off-putting. Speaking of Byrne & non-canon stories & 'Old Superman', I've never read any of his Generations minis with Superman & Batman aging in real time. Were any of those good? I’ve always thought Hulk was like a ft taller than Ben and at least 65lb heavier. |
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Post by driver1980 on Apr 14, 2024 7:41:19 GMT -5
A few more random musings... I find it interesting when I reflect back on the olden days of Marvel that if say a fan wrote a letter pointing out a seeming continuity inconsistency, if deemed truly a "mistake" they would get awarded a No Prize and we'd all smile and move on. Nowadays I think there would be a team of editors quickly assigning a branching continuity, adding a new numeric designation, updating charts, etc. And certain fans quick to scrutinize how all that was handled. I don't know...when late 70's Kal was introduced as a small tot to comics through Spider-Man, somehow simultaneously reading the early Lee/Ditko run by way of Pocket Book reprints, the main current titles off the newsstand, the Spidey Super Stories version, and then also watching the 60's cartoon reruns, I didn't need a roadmap. It was all Spider-Man somehow, you just kicked back and enjoyed the ride. It's another reason I love Alex Ross...the guy's like "I'll do whatever project I feel like" and the only "continuity" is his personal vision of the best of old histories. Call it Elseworlds, What If, Out of Continuity, Imaginary Story, Alternate Universe...I just call it a comic. Continuity is more of a loose "wouldn't it be cool if we created this connection back to an earlier event" in my mind because it adds to the ongoing storytelling versus some precise "audit" that must categorize everything (or the needless deus ex machina of DC trying to declare "everything" canon now as I understand it). The only thing I'm sure of is that comics make no sense in any aspect if you try to rationalize too much, and why should they. There's a reason it's called "escapism". I agree. Another good comparison, I feel, is James Bond. Think too deeply and you cannot reconcile the films. Goldfinger is clearly a 60s setting because there’s a 1964 newspaper headline in the film, and Goldfinger mentions how we’re at the stage where we’re sending rockets to the moon, which clearly means it predates 1969; yet Bond is called a “relic of the Cold War” in GoldenEye, and Daniel Craig’s Bond is using GPS and the like. So there really is no way to reconcile all of it. But, hey, we just enjoy the ride (I hope). Enjoy watching Dalton’s Bond in a film where SMERSH is mentioned as having disbanded while simultaneously enjoying the 60s Cold War setting of earlier films - and appreciating Brosnan’s and Craig’s versions using GPS and the like. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2024 7:42:36 GMT -5
Somehow I've always thought that Hulk was larger, more massive than Ben. He's barely that here and I find it off-putting. Speaking of Byrne & non-canon stories & 'Old Superman', I've never read any of his Generations minis with Superman & Batman aging in real time. Were any of those good? I’ve always thought Hulk was like a ft taller than Ben and at least 65lb heavier. Just going on the stats listed in the old Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, the height difference is exactly that (Hulk is listed at 7' and the Thing at 6'). The weight is listed double though (Hulk at 1,040 lbs and the Thing at only 500 lbs) which certainly isn't the intuitive visual implying the Hulk is somehow considered considerably more dense physically speaking (not making an intelligence joke there!). Checking Marvel.com now, the Thing is still listed the same for height/weight, and the Hulk is now up to 7' 6" and weight is up 1,150 lbs. |
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 14, 2024 8:10:15 GMT -5
The Thing at 500 lbs seems to light. I think the Hulk changes size with each artist. Steranko's Hulk was at least 9 ft tall.  |
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Post by james on Apr 14, 2024 8:30:23 GMT -5
The Thing at 500 lbs seems to light. I think the Hulk changes size with each artist. Steranko's Hulk was at least 9 ft tall. Does Hulk’s measurements change also when he is angry or just his strength? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2024 8:59:56 GMT -5
The Thing at 500 lbs seems to light. Well, he's only 6' tall and supposedly weighs roughly 3X the size of an ordinary man, but I think the bigger consideration is there's no actual science to that imagined rocky body. The actual density and durability/strength could be whatever they want to dream up. I don't think weight (or even height for that matter) is even the right meaurement though, a 7 to 7 1/12 foot massively muscled real person couldn't do the tiniest fraction of what the Hulk can do. His bulk is imposing, but he's got Superman-ish metahuman stuff going on. The Thing and Hulk aren't just "big guys". |
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