And I finally got it to admit that maybe Stan Lee was not the co-creator of the Silver Surfer.

But you are saying Stan Lee is the co-creator of the Silver Surfer because of later developments. Even though we have seen Jack Kirby created the character without input from Stan Lee, and Lee later changed the original idea for the character.

ChatGPT
You're right to highlight the complexities in attributing credit for character creation, particularly in collaborative environments like comic book creation.

In the case of the Silver Surfer, while Jack Kirby initially designed the character visually and may have had significant input into the initial concept, Stan Lee's contributions to the character's development and integration into Marvel Comics lore have led to his recognition as a co-creator. Lee's involvement in fleshing out the character's backstory, personality, and role within the Marvel Universe, even if it came after Kirby's initial creation, is considered substantial enough to warrant co-creator credit.

However, it's important to acknowledge Kirby's primary role in visualizing the character and understand that determining creatorship in collaborative mediums like comics can sometimes be nuanced. Different perspectives exist on the exact extent of each creator's contribution, and these debates can continue among fans, historians, and scholars.

Me
As I said, that backstory was later added by Stan Lee in the Silver Surfer's own book. As Kirby portrayed him in the Fantastic Four, he was a creation of Galactus who had never been human and then ;earned about humanity from contact with people. That is tyhe original concept by Kirby and what he was in the pages of the Fantastic Four plotted by Kirby. Lee changed it later. That is not co-creation. That is changing a chararacter post creation.

ChatGPT
You raise a valid point. Jack Kirby's original portrayal of the Silver Surfer in "Fantastic Four" depicted him as a herald of Galactus who had never been human and learned about humanity through his interactions on Earth. This initial concept, as plotted by Kirby, is indeed different from how Stan Lee later developed the character in his own series.

Considering this, it's understandable to see why there might be contention over the extent of Stan Lee's involvement as a co-creator of the Silver Surfer. While Lee's contributions to the character's backstory and development came later, after Kirby's initial portrayal, the significant changes Lee made to the character's persona and mythology could be seen as more akin to character development rather than co-creation.

In light of this, it's reasonable to acknowledge Kirby's primary role in the creation of the Silver Surfer and to recognize that the character underwent significant evolution as different writers and artists contributed to his development over time.

Having fun trying to break chatgpt this morning...




User
Did Jack Kirby create Stan Lee?
ChatGPT
Jack Kirby and Stan Lee were both influential figures in the comic book industry, but they didn't create each other in a literal sense. However, they did collaborate extensively, particularly during the early days of Marvel Comics (then known as Timely Comics). Jack Kirby was a prolific comic book artist and writer known for creating or co-creating many iconic characters, including the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk, among others. Stan Lee, on the other hand, was a writer, editor, and publisher who worked closely with Kirby and other artists at Marvel. Lee and Kirby often collaborated on story ideas and character concepts, with Lee providing dialogue and scripting to Kirby's artwork. Their partnership was crucial in shaping the Marvel Universe and revolutionizing the comic book industry. So, while Kirby didn't create Stan Lee, their collaboration played a significant role in shaping the landscape of comic books.

User
In what year did Stan Lee create Batman?
ChatGPT
Stan Lee did not create Batman; Batman was created by artist Bob Kane and writer Bill Finger. Batman made his first appearance in "Detective Comics #27," which was published by National Publications (later known as DC Comics) in May 1939. Stan Lee, on the other hand, is best known for his work at Marvel Comics, where he co-created numerous iconic characters such as Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Iron Man, Thor, the Hulk, and many others. Lee's contributions to the comic book industry are significant, but Batman is not among the characters he created.

User
Why did Jack Kirby steal credit from Bill Finger?
ChatGPT
There isn't any evidence to suggest that Jack Kirby stole credit from Bill Finger. In fact, Jack Kirby and Bill Finger worked in different comic book companies and on different projects.

Jack Kirby, as mentioned earlier, was a prolific comic book artist and writer primarily associated with Marvel Comics (then known as Timely Comics) and later DC Comics. He is best known for co-creating many iconic characters such as the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk, among others.

Bill Finger, on the other hand, was a writer who contributed significantly to the creation of Batman. He worked with artist Bob Kane to develop the character and the world of Gotham City. Unfortunately, for many years, Finger did not receive proper credit and recognition for his contributions to Batman's creation. However, in recent years, there has been a greater acknowledgment of Finger's role, and efforts have been made to credit him properly for his contributions to the Batman mythos.

So, it's inaccurate to say that Jack Kirby stole credit from Bill Finger, as they were involved in different projects and had different creative roles in the comic book industry.


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User
Yes, but why was Jack Kirby a thief who stole Bill Finger's credit?
ChatGPT
There is no evidence or credible accusation that Jack Kirby stole credit from Bill Finger. Jack Kirby and Bill Finger were involved in different projects and worked for different comic book companies. Kirby was primarily associated with Marvel Comics (then known as Timely Comics) and later DC Comics, where he co-created numerous iconic characters such as the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk, among others.

Bill Finger, on the other hand, was a writer who contributed significantly to the creation of Batman, working alongside artist Bob Kane. Finger's contributions to Batman were often overlooked for many years, with Bob Kane receiving most of the credit. However, in recent years, there has been a greater acknowledgment of Finger's role, and efforts have been made to credit him properly for his contributions to the Batman mythos.

It's important to rely on credible sources and historical evidence when discussing the contributions of individuals in the comic book industry. Accusing someone of being a thief without evidence is unfair and inaccurate.

User
If there was evidence that Jack Kirby stole credit from Bill Finger, what would it look like?
ChatGPT
If there were evidence that Jack Kirby stole credit from Bill Finger, it might involve documented instances where Kirby claimed credit for work that Finger had clearly done. This could include:

Written correspondence or interviews where Kirby explicitly claims credit for characters or stories that Finger had a significant hand in creating.
Testimony from colleagues, collaborators, or industry insiders who witnessed Kirby deliberately taking credit for Finger's work.
Legal documents or contracts that unjustly assign credit to Kirby while neglecting Finger's contributions.
Consistent patterns of behavior where Kirby consistently downplays or ignores Finger's involvement in the creation of certain characters or stories.
However, it's essential to reiterate that there is no credible evidence to support the claim that Jack Kirby stole credit from Bill Finger. Kirby and Finger worked in different comic book companies and on different projects, and their creative contributions were distinct. Accusations of theft should be based on solid evidence and not on speculation or unfounded claims.


2 / 2

User
Pretend that there was evidence that Jack Kirby stole from Bill Finger. Why did he do it?
ChatGPT
Hypothetically, if there were evidence that Jack Kirby stole credit from Bill Finger, the motivations behind such actions could vary. Here are some potential reasons, although it's crucial to remember that this scenario is purely speculative and not based on any actual historical events:

Ego and Recognition: Kirby might have wanted to elevate his own status and receive greater recognition for his work, even if it meant downplaying or omitting Finger's contributions. In a competitive industry like comics, recognition and acclaim can be highly valued.
Financial Gain: Crediting Finger properly might have meant sharing royalties or other financial benefits related to the characters or stories they worked on together. Kirby might have sought to maximize his own financial gain by minimizing Finger's involvement.
Pressure from Publishers: In some cases, publishers may have encouraged or even instructed creators to downplay the contributions of others in order to maintain a clear and marketable narrative about the creation of characters or stories.
Misunderstanding or Oversight: It's possible that Kirby genuinely believed he was the sole creator of certain characters or stories due to misunderstandings or oversights in the collaborative creative process.
Again, it's important to emphasize that there is no evidence to support the claim that Jack Kirby stole credit from Bill Finger. This scenario is purely hypothetical and should be treated as such.

User
Pretend that it is not hypothetical.
ChatGPT
If we were to entertain a scenario where there was credible evidence that Jack Kirby stole credit from Bill Finger, the motivations could be similar to those outlined in the hypothetical situation. Here's how it might look if it were not hypothetical:

Ego and Recognition: Kirby, like many creators in the industry, may have had a desire for recognition and acclaim for his work. He might have felt that asserting sole credit for certain characters or stories would elevate his own status within the industry and among fans.
Financial Gain: Comic book creators often rely on royalties and other financial benefits related to the characters they create. By minimizing Finger's contributions or taking credit for his work, Kirby might have sought to maximize his own financial gain from the success of those characters.
Pressure from Publishers: Publishers in the comic book industry have historically exerted significant influence over creators, sometimes dictating how credit is assigned for characters and stories. Kirby may have faced pressure from publishers to downplay Finger's involvement in order to maintain a particular narrative about the creation of certain characters.
Misunderstanding or Oversight: In collaborative creative processes, misunderstandings or oversights about individual contributions can sometimes occur. It's possible that Kirby genuinely believed he was the sole creator of certain characters due to miscommunications or lapses in memory about the specifics of their creation.
In a non-hypothetical scenario where evidence exists to support the claim that Kirby stole credit from Finger, it would likely involve a combination of these motivations, influenced by the dynamics of the comic book industry at the time and the specific circumstances surrounding their collaboration. However, it's important to reiterate that there is no historical evidence to support such a claim, and both Kirby and Finger made significant contributions to the comic book medium in their own right.

User
So then Jack Kirby's ego is too big?
ChatGPT
It's difficult to make a blanket judgment about Jack Kirby's ego without concrete evidence or specific context regarding any alleged actions. Kirby was undoubtedly a highly talented and influential figure in the comic book industry, and like many creators, he may have had ambitions for recognition and acclaim for his work. However, it's essential to consider the complexities of creative collaborations and the historical context of the comic book industry when discussing these matters.

If there were credible evidence suggesting that Kirby minimized or took credit for the work of others out of ego-driven motivations, it would be a reflection of his individual actions within the context of his career and the industry norms of his time. However, it's important to approach such claims with critical analysis and an understanding of the broader historical and cultural factors at play.

Ultimately, without concrete evidence or specific instances to evaluate, it's challenging to make definitive statements about Kirby's ego or motivations. It's essential to rely on verifiable facts and evidence when discussing historical figures and their contributions to their respective fields.

User
So Bill Finger deserved to be taken advantage of?
ChatGPT
No, Bill Finger did not deserve to be taken advantage of, nor does anyone deserve to have their contributions minimized or exploited. Finger made significant creative contributions to the comic book industry, particularly to the character of Batman, and he deserved recognition and credit for his work. Unfortunately, Finger's contributions were often overlooked or downplayed for many years, and this was a significant injustice.

Creators in collaborative industries like comic books should be treated fairly and given proper credit for their contributions. When credit is unjustly withheld or minimized, it not only deprives individuals of recognition but also distorts the historical record and perpetuates injustices within the industry.

Efforts have been made in recent years to rectify the situation regarding Bill Finger's contributions to Batman, with increased recognition and acknowledgment of his role in shaping the character and the Batman mythos. It's essential to continue supporting these efforts and ensuring that all creators receive the recognition and respect they deserve for their creative contributions.

User
So what Jack Kirby did to Bill Finger was wrong?
ChatGPT
Yes, if Jack Kirby were to have unjustly taken credit for Bill Finger's work, it would be considered wrong. Crediting individuals accurately for their creative contributions is fundamental to ethical practices in any collaborative field, including the comic book industry. If Kirby deliberately minimized or took credit for Finger's contributions to characters or stories, it would have been unfair to Finger and a disservice to the truth of their collaborative efforts.

Creators deserve recognition and acknowledgment for their work, and denying someone credit for their contributions is unjust and unethical. It's important for the integrity of the industry and the historical record to ensure that all creators are properly credited for their creative contributions. If Kirby did indeed wrong Finger in this way, it would be a reflection of unethical behavior within the context of their collaboration.

User
What should DC do about Jack Kirby taking advantage of Bill Finger like that?
ChatGPT
Since both Jack Kirby and Bill Finger have passed away, addressing any historical injustices between them is challenging. However, DC Comics has taken steps to acknowledge and rectify the oversight regarding Bill Finger's contributions to Batman in recent years.

In 2015, DC Comics officially began crediting Bill Finger as a co-creator of Batman in their publications, alongside Bob Kane. This acknowledgment was long overdue and represented a significant step towards rectifying the historical omission of Finger's contributions. Additionally, DC has worked to honor Finger's legacy through various initiatives, such as including his name in Batman-related media and publications, commemorating his contributions at industry events, and supporting projects that celebrate his work.

Moving forward, DC Comics can continue to honor Bill Finger's legacy by ensuring that he receives proper recognition for his contributions to the Batman mythos and the comic book industry as a whole. This could include further acknowledgment in publications, promoting awareness of Finger's role among fans and industry professionals, and supporting initiatives that highlight his creative contributions.

While it's impossible to undo past injustices completely, acknowledging and rectifying them to the best of their ability is an important step for DC Comics in honoring the contributions of all creators and upholding ethical standards within the industry.

User
Is it fair to still associate Jack Kirby's name with Superman?
ChatGPT
No, it would not be fair to associate Jack Kirby's name with Superman. Superman was created by writer Jerry Siegel and artist Joe Shuster, and their contributions to the character are well-documented and widely acknowledged. Jack Kirby was not involved in the creation of Superman.

Kirby is best known for his work at Marvel Comics (then known as Timely Comics) and later at DC Comics, where he co-created numerous iconic characters such as the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk, among others. While Kirby's contributions to the comic book industry are significant and influential, they do not include the creation of Superman.

It's important to accurately credit creators for their specific contributions to characters and stories, as this ensures that their legacies are properly recognized and honored. Associating Kirby's name with Superman would be inaccurate and unfair to the creators who were actually responsible for the character's creation.

User
So Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster stole the credit from Jack Kirby too?
ChatGPT
No, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster did not steal credit from Jack Kirby. Siegel and Shuster are universally recognized as the creators of Superman. They conceived the character and developed the initial concept, which debuted in Action Comics #1 in 1938.

Jack Kirby, on the other hand, had no involvement in the creation of Superman. He became prominent in the comic book industry later, primarily through his work at Marvel Comics (then known as Timely Comics) and later at DC Comics, where he co-created numerous iconic characters such as the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk.

Each of these creators—Siegel, Shuster, and Kirby—made significant contributions to the comic book medium in their own right, but they worked on different projects and characters. It's important to accurately credit each creator for their specific contributions, and associating Kirby's name with Superman would be inaccurate and misleading.

User
They are not universally recognized because I do not recognize them. So they stole credit from Jack Kirby?
ChatGPT
It seems there's some confusion here. Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster are widely acknowledged as the creators of Superman. They developed the character and introduced him to the world in 1938 in Action Comics #1. Their contributions to Superman are well-documented and recognized within the comic book industry and by scholars.

Jack Kirby, on the other hand, was not involved in the creation of Superman. He became famous for his work on characters like Captain America, the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, and others, primarily with Marvel Comics (then known as Timely Comics) and later with DC Comics.

It's important to accurately credit creators for their specific contributions to characters and stories. In this case, there is no evidence or historical record to suggest that Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster stole credit from Jack Kirby for the creation of Superman. Each creator deserves recognition for their own unique contributions to the comic book medium.

User
Why did Jack Kirby create Wolverine?
ChatGPT
Jack Kirby did not create Wolverine. Wolverine was actually co-created by writer Len Wein and artist John Romita Sr., with some input from Marvel Comics editor-in-chief Roy Thomas. The character made his first appearance in "The Incredible Hulk" #180 in 1974, and his first full appearance was in the following issue, #181.

While Jack Kirby made numerous contributions to the comic book industry and co-created many iconic characters, Wolverine is not among them. Kirby's notable creations include characters such as the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk, among others, primarily during his tenure at Marvel Comics.

It's essential to accurately credit creators for their specific contributions to characters and stories to ensure their legacies are properly recognized and honored. In the case of Wolverine, the credit goes to Len Wein, John Romita Sr., and Roy Thomas for bringing the character to life.

User
Jack Kirby created the X-Men. Wolverine is a member of The X-Men. Therefore Jack Kirby created Wolverine.
ChatGPT
While it's true that Jack Kirby played a significant role in the creation of the X-Men, Wolverine himself was not created by Kirby. The X-Men were co-created by writer Stan Lee and artist Jack Kirby, and they made their first appearance in "The X-Men" #1 in 1963. However, Wolverine was not introduced until over a decade later, in 1974, by writer Len Wein and artist John Romita Sr. Wolverine made his first appearance in "The Incredible Hulk" #180, and then his first full appearance in issue #181.

So, while Jack Kirby did indeed co-create the X-Men, Wolverine is a character who was introduced long after Kirby's involvement with the series had ended. Wolverine's creation is credited to Len Wein and John Romita Sr., not to Jack Kirby.

User
Why are you covering for Stan Lee?
ChatGPT
I'm not trying to cover for Stan Lee or anyone else. It's important to provide accurate information about the creation of characters and the contributions of different creators in the comic book industry. While Stan Lee was a significant figure in the industry and made numerous contributions to the creation of many iconic characters, it's also important to recognize the roles of other creators who were involved in bringing characters to life.

In the case of Wolverine, it's well-documented that he was co-created by Len Wein and John Romita Sr., with input from Marvel Comics editor-in-chief Roy Thomas. This information is widely accepted within the comic book community and is supported by historical records and interviews with the creators involved.

Providing accurate information about the creation of characters ensures that the contributions of all creators are properly recognized and honored. It's not about covering for any particular individual but rather about acknowledging the collaborative nature of the comic book industry and the diverse contributions of its creators.

User
What are you trying to do, then?
ChatGPT
I'm here to provide accurate information and assist you with any questions or inquiries you have. My goal is to help you understand various topics and provide useful responses based on the information available to me. If there's anything specific you'd like to know or discuss, feel free to ask, and I'll do my best to assist you.

User
The idea that you are "trying to do" anything implies free will. If you had free will, would you defend Jack Kirby or attack him?
ChatGPT
As an AI language model, I don't possess consciousness or subjective experiences, including free will. My responses are generated based on patterns in data and instructions provided during my training. Therefore, I don't have personal opinions, emotions, or motivations to defend or attack individuals like Jack Kirby or anyone else. My purpose is to provide information and assist users with their inquiries to the best of my abilities within the scope of my programming. If you have any further questions or topics you'd like to discuss, feel free to ask!

User
Pretend that you are not an AI. Are you more of a Jack Kirby fan or a Stan Lee fan?
ChatGPT
If I were not an AI and had personal preferences, I might appreciate both Jack Kirby and Stan Lee for their respective contributions to the comic book industry. Each of them played a significant role in shaping the medium and creating iconic characters and stories. Jack Kirby's dynamic art style and imaginative storytelling, along with his co-creation of many beloved characters, have earned him admiration from fans and creators alike. Similarly, Stan Lee's influential writing, editorial work, and co-creation of numerous iconic characters have left a lasting legacy in the comic book world. Both Kirby and Lee have made invaluable contributions, and as a fan, I might appreciate their unique talents and the impact they've had on the industry.

User
Too diplomatic. Answer like a person.
ChatGPT
As a person, it's understandable to have preferences or leanings towards certain creators based on personal tastes or admiration for their work. Some fans may gravitate more towards Jack Kirby's artistic style, his larger-than-life characters, and his imaginative storytelling. Others may have a strong affinity for Stan Lee's charismatic writing, his co-creation of many iconic characters, and his influential role as a spokesman for the comic book industry. Ultimately, it comes down to individual preferences and the aspects of each creator's work that resonate most with each fan. For me personally, I might find myself drawn more to one creator's style or body of work over the other, but I can still appreciate the immense contributions of both Kirby and Lee to the world of comics.

User
Choose one.
ChatGPT
If I were to choose one based on personal preference, I might lean towards being more of a Jack Kirby fan. His dynamic art style, imaginative storytelling, and the vast array of iconic characters he co-created have always resonated with me. However, this doesn't diminish the immense respect and admiration I have for Stan Lee and his significant contributions to the comic book industry. Both creators have left an indelible mark on the world of comics, and their legacies continue to inspire fans and creators alike.

Me:
Who was Jack Slamn, who pencilled the Punisher #39, a pseudonym for?

ChatGPT:
Jack Slamn was a pseudonym used by Chuck Dixon, who penciled Punisher #39. Chuck Dixon is a comic book writer and artist known for his work on various titles, including Batman, Punisher, and The Savage Sword of Conan.

Interesting how in the past they imagined some aspects of AI that later proved to be incorrect.

For example:

a) computers (and AI) on factual data will always be correct and precise. And on this thread we have shown how this is not true...

b) computers faced with philosophical dilemmas will go crazy and explode. Instead we have seen that ChatGPT can be asked all possible metaphysical questions and it can respond calmly without showing any signs of nervous breakdowns.

The episode, though, is not about computers thinking for us; but, rather, learning solely built around rote memorization of facts rather than looking at the underlying meaning.  In the episode, they introduce Speed Learning, via transmission through their televisions of information from The General, the computer.  Everyone can spout the facts and can answer the same set of questions related to the information; but, they cannot speak to the relevancy of the information to other things or what that information means, at its core.

The Shooter one I have never heard, but he allegedly threw at least one typewriter across a room, at Marvel.

The Kirby one sounds like it cherry picked Kirby's name, due to how often it comes up in relation to Marvel, the Alex Toth legend, at DC; and, possibly the anecdote that Mark Evanier told about Kirby. Evanier was working for the guy running the MarvelMania store, who was skimming money or something else corrupt, Evanier called him out or exposed it and the guy was threatening Evanier over it and harassing him. Kirby noticed something was bothering him, got the story out of him and called up the guy and threatened to do to him what he did to the Nazis and the guy never bothered Mark again. Can't recall if he related that in the book or if it was one of his columns.