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Post by tarkintino on Aug 13, 2024 21:55:29 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 14 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 152)  “The Grotesque Adventure of the Green Goblin” This is the first appearance of the Green Goblin. His true identity will continue to be a mystery for some time, and he’ll go on to become one of Spider-man’s deadliest foes. In this period, the Goblin was just another criminal with ambitions that did not distinguish him as a serious, personal threat to Parker, or even hint that he was a seriously disturbed megalomaniac with darker impulses. That brilliant evolution of the character would come in the next era, of course. Marvel's cultural reference omission and/or "updating" approach to this period of reprints was nonsensical at best, and quite inconsistent, since they (several years earlier) never felt the need to do that in any of their Golden Age reprints (e.g. Fantasy Masterpieces / Marvel Super-Heroes), or in the endless Silver Age Captain America WW2 stories (from Tales of Suspense and Captain America) when reprinted in Marvel Super Action, Marvel Double Feature, etc.). In other words, there was no belief that new readers needed Cap's WW2 exploits moved to the Korean or Vietnam wars in order to make the stories "relevant" to readers more familiar with the named wars and era trappings. The same treatment should have applied to the Spider-Man reprints, since part of the point of Marvel Tales was advertising its history--the early years, not trying to con readers (especially those familiar with then-present day Spider-Man comics) into thinking the old stories and its settings were part of the then-recent era. |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Aug 14, 2024 2:20:39 GMT -5
In one scene, a reference to “Tony Curtis” becomes “Tom Sellick”, and a whole line about the Beatles gets removed completely from the same word balloon. The first issue I noticed this was Marvel Tales 149. There were some similar types of changes in MT 150 as well, but since I re-arranged these stories to their proper reading order I haven’t get to that one yet. Tom Sellick would have been popular at the time, so this change might make sense, since it seemed like they were trying to appeal to a younger audience than the ones who were around the first time these stories were released. Not sure why the Beatles had to be removed though. I'm sure 1980s readers would have been familiar with their music, but of course the band was no longer together at that time, which is probably why the change was decided on.  And they've mis-spelt Tom Selleck's surname. |
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Post by swansong on Aug 14, 2024 4:38:08 GMT -5
Oddly enough, a few years ago I read a Fritz Leiber story called "The Haunted Future" ("Transquility or Else!" is another name for it). There is a man in the story who embodies a "goblin-like" figure, though he doesn't literally ride a broomstick. David Cruxon, a central character in the story, dons a "green demon mask" with glowing red eyes and other eerie gear, including a light-flow fabric robe that makes him nearly invisible. He uses an antigravity harness to fly and perform pranks, frightening people as if he were a supernatural entity. His antics include swooping down from the sky and causing disturbances that spread fear and chaos, much like how one might imagine a goblin or witch behaving. While he doesn't use a broomstick, his actions—flying, creating mischief, and terrifying people—echo the imagery often associated with a goblin-like figure. It's from 1959, I dont know if there is any connection, but in my mind I saw the Green Goblin!  |
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Post by swansong on Aug 14, 2024 4:42:00 GMT -5
Just some other thoughts:
- I am pretty much amazed by these early Spider-Man stories! You could basically take those stories and make a movie or TV series out of them, right away, without even changing much!
- First time I saw the Green Goblin was in the 80s Spider-Man series (not the one with the friends) on VHS - "Revenge of the Green Goblin". This scared me like hell! That's why in my mind I had always associated the Green Goblin with a more mysterious, horror-like creature that you dont know whether he is human or not. Sadly, thats not the case!
- I think my first Goblin in the comic I met was the therapist "imposter".
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Post by Confessor on Aug 14, 2024 5:57:27 GMT -5
- I am pretty much amazed by these early Spider-Man stories! You could basically take those stories and make a movie or TV series out of them, right away, without even changing much! I'd love to see a period drama TV version of these early Lee/Ditko Spider-Man stories, set in the early '60s with all the period attention to detail and realism of a series like Mad Men. I'd watch the hell out of that. |
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Post by Confessor on Aug 14, 2024 12:19:35 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 14 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 152) The cover gets flipped, and the Hulk’s picture is omitted, to make room for the UPC box. There's also some missing stalactites which gives us a better, clearer view of the Green Goblin. Here's the cover of ASM #14…  This is the first appearance of the Green Goblin. His true identity will continue to be a mystery for some time, and he’ll go on to become one of Spider-man’s deadliest foes. I know all about the later controversy about Steve Ditko allegedly wanting the Green Goblin to be someone readers didn't know, while Stan Lee wanted him to be one of the supporting cast members, but I'm not sure a really buy that. In this first appearance, the intention is clearly to hide the Goblin's identity from the readers, undoubtedly for a big reveal later down the line. Ditko's artwork very deliberately obscures the Goblin's face whenever he's got his mask off, especially in that panel where he's changing back into his civilian identity and the locker door is covering his face – that's just blatant…  To me it's plain that Lee and Ditko always intended to tease the readers with the mystery of the Goblin's identity. Why else would they set up that guessing game, if it's not ultimately going to be someone who the reader's already know? Also, Stan's blurb on the cover and even in the way in which the story immediately focuses on the Goblin from the very first panel says to me that Lee absolutely knew that this was going to be an important villain. He's signalling to the readership that here is a bad guy who is out of the ordinary! For me, that just lends further weight to the suggestion that both the creators knew this was a villain whose secret identity was going to become a big feature of the comic. On a related subject, if we assume that Lee and Ditko did always intended the Goblin to be one of the supporting cast members, does anyone have any wild theories about who it was intended to be at this early stage? Obviously, Norman Osborn hasn't been introduced yet – and won't be for another two years (in ASM #37). So, I have a hard time believing that it was always going to be him. I think it's much more likely that Stan and Steve were intending the Goblin to be somebody who had already been introduced in the first fifteen Spider-Man comics (including AF #15). It's clearly a male. It's also clearly someone with enough money for a secret basement laboratory. And its somebody with the technical smarts to create a flying electric broomstick and stun-grenades. Thoughts? This early issue offers barely any clues to who the Goblin is, other than the fact he’s a guy in a mask, and has some type of mechanical expertise, since he’s shown working on his “Flying Broomstick” himself. Eventually the Broomstick will be replaced by his more famous Bat Glider for later appearances, and though he’s shown hurling stun bombs, it’s not clear if they’re shaped like pumpkins at this point. The electric broomstick sucks ass! I've always disliked it and I have a real problem with the fact that it looks impossible to ride: how does the Goblin stay on that thing?! The later bat-glider is a much better idea and looks way cooler. I don't think the Goblin is hurling pumpkin bombs yet; these are just stun-grenades. The fight scene in the cave is pretty cool, and Ditko does some interesting work with the shadows to establish the mood. I agree. This sequence is really well drawn by Ditko. This issue, of course features a guest appearance by the Incredible Hulk because two green and purple Marvel characters are better than one! Spidey and Hulk are my favorite Marvel characters, and the Green Goblin is my favorite villain, so having them all in one place is awesome! I'm not a big Hulk fan, generally, but he's OK. However, he just feels unnecessarily shoehorned into this issue. There's no reason at all why you need to have him appear other than to attract fans of the character to the Spider-Man comic. Still, his interactions with Spidey are pretty entertaining. Overall, I really like this issue. It's a bit silly, yes, but its also a lot of fun and historically important for introducing a villain who will soon become Spider-Man's arch-enemy. I really like the Green Goblin and, while this isn't anywhere near his best appearance, it's still a good enough debut. The movie producer B.J. Cosmos is a suitably over-the-top satire of Hollywood (I bet this is Ditko's doing!), while the Enforcers are much more entertaining than they were in their first appearance in ASM #10. All in all, this is one of my favourite issues of the Lee/Ditko run. Good stuff. |
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Post by Rob Allen on Aug 14, 2024 12:29:11 GMT -5
I know all about the later controversy about Steve Ditko allegedly wanting the Green Goblin to be someone readers didn't know, while Stan Lee wanted him to be one of the supporting cast members, but I'm not sure a really buy that. There are some answers here: classiccomics.org/thread/6091/green-goblin-norman-osborn-ditkos |
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Post by Confessor on Aug 14, 2024 12:36:20 GMT -5
I know all about the later controversy about Steve Ditko allegedly wanting the Green Goblin to be someone readers didn't know, while Stan Lee wanted him to be one of the supporting cast members, but I'm not sure a really buy that. There are some answers here: classiccomics.org/thread/6091/green-goblin-norman-osborn-ditkosI remember that thread, but the thread title "PSA: Green Goblin/Norman Osborn was Ditko's idea" is extremely off-putting. Zero objectivity there! |
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 14, 2024 14:30:30 GMT -5
Norman Osborn first appears as a background character in ASM #23 and pops up in the same context several more times prior to his "debut" in #37, so I think Ditko had this in mind all along. I personally believe that either the creators or the historians have confused Green Goblin and Crime-Master, whose true identity was indeed someone the cast (and we) had never heard of.
Also, I believe the point of Hulk's guest star turn in ASM #14 was not a case of drawing Big Green's fans to the Spidey book but rather of keeping the character in the audience's consciousness while they prepped his new series in Tales to Astonish.
Cei-U!
I summon the (allegedly) informed opinion!
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Post by chaykinstevens on Aug 14, 2024 14:37:04 GMT -5
Obviously, Norman Osborn hasn't been introduced yet – and won't be for another two years (in ASM #37). So, I have a hard time believing that it was always going to be him. I think it's much more likely that Stan and Steve were intending the Goblin to be somebody who had already been introduced in the first fifteen Spider-Man comics (including AF #15). He wasn't named until #37, but Ditko had placed a character who looked like Osborn as an unnamed friend of JJJ in ASM #23 and 25-27.   |
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 14, 2024 15:55:04 GMT -5
Obviously, Norman Osborn hasn't been introduced yet – and won't be for another two years (in ASM #37). So, I have a hard time believing that it was always going to be him. I think it's much more likely that Stan and Steve were intending the Goblin to be somebody who had already been introduced in the first fifteen Spider-Man comics (including AF #15). From various sources and recollections read, the Goblin being some supporting player in the Ditko period was one thing brewing, but the night and day transformation into the kind of character so forcefully revealed in TASM #39 strongly suggests there's was no build-up during the Goblin's early (Ditko period) appearances (more of a testing ground for yet another crime comic / mad genius archetype). Certainly, Ditko period Goblin was not even hinting at the psychologically bastardized trinity (unholy, if you will allow) of Norman the abusive, dismissive father, Norman the obsessive calculating businessman and finally all pulled in to form the third part, a vastly different, sadistic Goblin with an obsessive hatred of Parker rarely explored so effectively in superhero comics before or since. That Goblin, or Osborn was a characterization never found among any of the "name" villains during the Ditko era; the sheer magnitude of change by the time of TASM #39 speaks to / supports the hypothesis that the Goblin / Osborn had been radically reinvented for the new era. |
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 14, 2024 16:29:37 GMT -5
To me it's plain that Lee and Ditko always intended to tease the readers with the mystery of the Goblin's identity. Why else would they set up that guessing game, if it's not ultimately going to be someone who the reader's already know? Also, Stan's blurb on the cover and even in the way in which the story immediately focuses on the Goblin from the very first panel says to me that Lee absolutely knew that this was going to be an important villain. He's signalling to the readership that here is a bad guy who is out of the ordinary! For me, that just lends further weight to the suggestion that both the creators knew this was a villain whose secret identity was going to become a big feature of the comic. On a related subject, if we assume that Lee and Ditko did alway intended the Goblin to be one of the supporting cast members, does anyone have any wild theories about who it was intended to be at this early stage? Obviously, Norman Osborn hasn't been introduced yet – and won't be for another two years (in ASM #37). So, I have a hard time believing that it was always going to be him. I think it's much more likely that Stan and Steve were intending the Goblin to be somebody who had already been introduced in the first fifteen Spider-Man comics (including AF #15). It's clearly a male. It's also clearly someone with enough money for a secret basement laboratory. And its somebody with the technical smarts to create a flying electric broomstick and stun-grenades. Thoughts? Overall, I really like this issue. It's a bit silly, yes, but its also a lot of fun and historically important for introducing a villain who will soon become Spider-Man's arch-enemy. I really like the Green Goblin and, while this isn't anywhere near his best appearance, it's still a good enough debut. The movie producer B.J. Cosmos is a suitably over-the-top satire of Hollywood (I bet this is Ditko's doing!), while the Enforcers are much more entertaining than they were in their first appearance in ASM #10. All in all, this is one of my favourite issues of the Lee/Ditko run. Good stuff. We're still a few issues away from the next appearance, but by then, even if Stan and Steve didn't know who the Goblin was going to be yet, the captions mention that Peter has never seen him without his mask, so that throws out pretty much anyone who appeared up to that point. Oh, and if anyone was wondering what B.J. Cosmos' real name was, it was revealed in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, as part of the Green Goblin's profile. |
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Post by Rob Allen on Aug 14, 2024 16:38:23 GMT -5
The thread I posted has direct quotes from Ditko plainly saying that he planned it from the start, he put the Goblin into Jonah's club and Goblin Jr. into Pete's college because he thought it would make for interesting stories. There's also a quote from Romita saying that Stan originally wanted Ned Leeds to be the Goblin but Steve made that impossible.
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Post by Confessor on Aug 14, 2024 17:30:18 GMT -5
The thread I posted has direct quotes from Ditko plainly saying that he planned it from the start, he put the Goblin into Jonah's club and Goblin Jr. into Pete's college because he thought it would make for interesting stories. There's also a quote from Romita saying that Stan originally wanted Ned Leeds to be the Goblin but Steve made that impossible. I must say, the source linked to in the first post of that thread (a contemporary fanzine interview with John Romita from 1966) is certainly compelling. I can't imagine any reason for Romita to not tell the truth regarding Ditko's intention to have always had the Green Goblin be Norman Osborn, and intentionally planting him in Jonah's club and Harry Osborn into Peter Parker's college. Romita's memory would certainly have still been fresh then. I mean, I know he's repeating stuff he heard from other workers at Marvel, such as Marie Severin, but again, why would Severin and the like lie about it? This aligns with Cei-U!'s suggestion that Stan Lee was later misremembering the disagreement with Ditko, and it was actually over some other character, such as the Crime Master. It also explains why, in the Goblin's first appearance in ASM #14, Ditko was so deliberately trying to hide his real face. Like I say, it's so blatant that I can't believe Ditko didn't already know that the mystery of the Goblin's identity was going to be a big thing in the comic going forward. Really interesting stuff. Thanks for pushing me to check out that thread, Rob. |
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 14, 2024 18:01:16 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 15 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 153)  “Kraven the Hunter!” Credits (as they appear in the comic): Written by Stan Lee (because we couldn’t afford Mickey Spillane) Illustrated by Steve Ditko (because Picasso was out of town) Lettered by Art Simek (because his name fits this space) Colored by Glynis Wein (because she’s got a cute face) Plot Synopsis: Kraven hunts Spider-man, for the first time!  Comments: This is the first appearance of Kraven the Hunter, and the second appearance of returning villain the Chameleon. Neither of these guys are given real names until decades later, nor is their friendship or connection explained in this issue. All we know is that Kraven is “The most dangerous stalker on Earth!”, gets his super hunting-abilities from a secret jungle potion. Kraven is here to hunt Spider-man, as a favour for his old pal the Chameleon... and of course for the challenge. When Kraven announces his intentions, it's interesting that Jameson is the one to announce that there are laws against hunting human beings in America. It's clear that Jameson doesn't have any problem with the choice of prey, but even for a law-abiding citizen, JJ's always had a blindspot when it comes to Spider-man, so I would think he'd be supportive of Kraven right from the start.  Peter’s personal life again becomes more complicated when the various cast members interact. This is the first time we see Betty and Liz in the same scene and of course it doesn’t go too well. Betty does a great, hilarious Liz Allan impression, by the way! Betty is still Peter’s girlfriend, but it won’t be too long before more complications arrive in this and upcoming issues. Aunt May has arranged a blind date for Peter with the niece of their neighbor Mrs. Watson. This is the first time their neighbor Mrs. Watson is mentioned. We don’t find out her niece’s name, nor do we get to meet her since she comes down with a headache and has to cancel out on Pete. Once again, Stan and Steve make good use of the 22 pages they have to work with. You don't need six issues to do a good Kraven story. This issue has it all! Like any good hunter, Kraven observes and stalks his prey before hand . During their first confrontation, he manages to get the upper hand through the use of special drugs which mess with Spider-man's senses and causes extra unneeded problems for Peter at home and at school. As we've seen before in previous issues with similar story-structure, this setback is just temporary, and sets the stage for a big action scene at the end. The final showdown in the park with Chameleon disguised as Kraven, and the use of jungle drums to confuse and disorient Spider-man is really well done. Of course, Spidey is able to shake off the effects of Kraven's poison and manages to turn the tables on his two foes, and even manages to snap a few pics for Jameson.   Kraven and Chameleon are deported to South America at the end of the issue. If you want to find out where they go next read the Iron Man story in Tales of Suspense 58. This isn’t an Iron Man thread and that story has nothing to do with Spidey, but I thought I’d mention it anyway. Notable differences in the reprint: The cover is un-flipped, meaning the UPC box covers up Spidey’s leg. A caption box announcing the return of the Chameleon is completely removed. Not sure if they tried flipping the cover to see if it would work any better. Either way you look at it, somebody’s leg is going to get covered up. The removal of the Chameleon picture means Kraven's foot is now visible. Don't know where that came from since it wasn't there before. Comic book readers can be really critical when it comes to drawings where you can't see the feet, so this was probably a good decision. I don't like the colouring on the net, with the empty spaces coloured white. The original did the sensible thing and just has the background colours showing through it.  For some reason, there's an entire caption missing on the splash page. I've noticed this at least a couple times before. Also, there’s some adjustments to the placement of credits, probably to make room for the indicia, which means some of Spidey’s hand gets covered up. As always, I'll try to keep an eye out for stuff like this, but if anyone spots anything I missed in my reviews, feel free to mention it in your comments.  Glynis Wein colours this issue, stepping in for regular colourist Andy Yanchus. She does a really great job with the colours during the park fight scene which makes it seem extra creepy, the way I'd imagine it would look at night. She also does a better job colouring Kraven's net than whoever did the cover. Peter's usual blue suit is coloured brown for this issue. Not sure why it was changed, but I think it looks good.  This is something I never noticed until I first read the scans of the original stories in my CD/DVD-Rom collection in 2005, but Kraven’s vest and arm-bands were originally coloured green. The Marvel Tales reprints colour these parts brown as this would eventually become their standard colour in later appearances. I have to say, I prefer brown in this case. Not every villain needs green in their outfit!  Marvel Mails letters page is included before the end of the story. Tom DeFalco Editor. Eliot Brown, Assistant Editor Personal anecdotes: This is the second Marvel Tales issue with a Lee/Ditko era story I got after 151 with Mysterio. I'm not sure if it was MT 151 or this one that convinced me that the Lee/Ditko stories were the best Spider-man stories ever, or maybe it was having now read two comics which were so different than anything else I had ever read. Even though I was only 7, I knew that Marvel Tales was the comic to look out for. I was already familiar from Kraven, from his appearance in Amazing Spider-man 209, which is a comic I had in my small collection at the time and also recognized him from an episode of Spider-man and His Amazing Friends. Somehow I knew this issue, and the Mysterio issue were telling stories from early in Spidey's career and his first encounters with these villains, but it didn't really hit me that these were reprints. I probably didn't even know what a reprint was. As far as young me was concerned, at the time, the only Spider-man stories that had ever existed were ones I actually owned. (for some reason the ones I'd see on the racks at the store, but never read, didn't count, lol) My older copy is in poor condition as is the case with a lot of comics I had when I was a kid, but I like my direct-edition replacement copy with the blurb in the UPC box advertising this as “Another Classic Marvel Milestone by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko!” |
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