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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 29, 2024 9:18:53 GMT -5
I think so, and that is a retcon. There was no sign of her being still manipulated at the end of #200. I'm not saying that it was an illogical plot twist, but Carol still being under Marcus's spell when she left with him is Chris Claremont's idea. Yeah, it was added in after the fact. I'm wondering whose idea it was to write her out of the series. She could have easily stayed on earth at the end of #200. Yeah. I liked Carol as a character, and I enjoyed the way Simon seemed attracted to her in a rather one-directional way. There were many sub-plots left unresolved surrounding Ms. Marvel. Writing her off felt like a bit of a waste. On her being abused, I think Chris Claremont may have felt he was doing the right thing by going back to Avengers #200 and giving its plot a new and more damning slant. But as he was doing so, he was also abusing Carol in a much more fundamental way, depriving her of her power, her memories and her very self.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Sept 29, 2024 13:17:56 GMT -5
I think so, and that is a retcon. There was no sign of her being still manipulated at the end of #200. I'm not saying that it was an illogical plot twist, but Carol still being under Marcus's spell when she left with him is Chris Claremont's idea. That wasn't quite the way I recalled it, so I had to go find those pages posted online and I wouldn't go so far as to say "no sign." While she may not have obviously been under a spell in those last few panels, it wasn't like she was jumping for joy at the prospect of going back to Limbo with Marcus - and she even tells Iron Man she's not entirely sure she knows what she's doing. Meanwhile, earlier in the book she was very hostile to the whole situation, even referring to the child as "that thing" at one point, and her attitude only started to change when she came face to face with the already adult Marcus, so it was by no means a stretch for Claremont to suggest that maybe the latter was still exerting some kind of control or influence over her emotions.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Sept 29, 2024 13:26:29 GMT -5
(...) On her being abused, I think Chris Claremont may have felt he was doing the right thing by going back to Avengers #200 and giving its plot a new and more damning slant. But as he was doing so, he was also abusing Carol in a much more fundamental way, depriving her of her power, her memories and her very self. We agree on that last point, though: I didn't see why she had to have her powers stripped away. And the loss of memories that were then only partially telepathically restored by Prof. X would actually mean that she wouldn't have been so emotionally distraught when she confronted the Avengers. (This occurred to me a few years later in an issue of X-men containing a scene in which Carol, now Binary, visits her parents and is thinking that she only has some vague affection for them.)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 29, 2024 15:32:42 GMT -5
I think so, and that is a retcon. There was no sign of her being still manipulated at the end of #200. I'm not saying that it was an illogical plot twist, but Carol still being under Marcus's spell when she left with him is Chris Claremont's idea. That wasn't quite the way I recalled it, so I had to go find those pages posted online and I wouldn't go so far as to say "no sign." While she may not have obviously been under a spell in those last few panels, it wasn't like she was jumping for joy at the prospect of going back to Limbo with Marcus - and she even tells Iron Man she's not entirely sure she knows what she's doing. Meanwhile, earlier in the book she was very hostile to the whole situation, even referring to the child as "that thing" at one point, and her attitude only started to change when she came face to face with the already adult Marcus, (...) Yes, that's how I remember it. After her ordeal, and even after learning what Marcus had done to her, Carol seemed touched by the guy's sorry situation. At the time, I interpreted it as Carol manifesting empathy and forgiveness, which was all to her credit. You're right, it's not that much of a stretch and leads to an interesting, though different outcome. At the same time, it would also have made sense for Carol to simply return to the Avengers after Marcus's death and say "he was a tortured and desperate soul, and while using me like he did was wrong, I'm glad I could help him a little before he died". I fully agree that Marcus's machinations could have still been influencing Carol when she decided to go with him; however, that is simply reasonable post-facto speculation. By the same token, we could imagine a lot of thinfs; for example, maybe every character who's ever been in love with a telepath was influenced by the latter's subconscious. I mean, it's not unreasonable to assume that someone who can influence minds consciously would also do so unconsciously! It really depends on what story a writer wants to go. Avengers #200 might not have made sense, but at least it gave Carol a sort of happy ending, where she follows her heart despite her head's misgivings; Avengers Annual #10 destroyed her life for the sake of the plot.
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Post by zaku on Oct 2, 2024 7:32:47 GMT -5
For the sake of completeness, this is the essay that inspired Claremont. The Rape of Ms. MarvelI have to say I totally agree with the part in bold. A liberated, modern woman like Ms. Marvel falling head over heels in love with someone thanks to some pretty dresses and some poetry after being kidnapped and held captive against her will, and no one at the time saw anything strange in that?
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 2, 2024 10:15:05 GMT -5
No one agrees with the story. No one.
It’s just a dopey story that should have been vetoed in its plotting stage. The editor blew it and everyone had to suffer as a result.
Once again it proves that “no” is a good thing to say when you have to.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 2, 2024 12:43:22 GMT -5
- A few final thoughts from me on what really was an excellent and thought provoking podcast: 2. I'm glad George says he liked Identity Crisis. I thought I was the only one on this forum who appreciated that series. This thread has made me once again appreciate being happily married for a long time and not having to worry about any of this nonsense y'all buried the lead though... people LIKE Identity Crisis? That's the DC's Crossing! This clearly needs to be episode 13.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 2, 2024 14:01:24 GMT -5
- A few final thoughts from me on what really was an excellent and thought provoking podcast: 2. I'm glad George says he liked Identity Crisis. I thought I was the only one on this forum who appreciated that series. This thread has made me once again appreciate being happily married for a long time and not having to worry about any of this nonsense y'all buried the lead though... people LIKE Identity Crisis? That's the DC's Crossing! This clearly needs to be episode 13. I’m not sure what you being married has to do with a bad plot. As for ID crisis, it was a riveting story that showed real life consequences to the business the DC heroes are in.
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Post by spoon on Oct 3, 2024 21:21:22 GMT -5
I think so, and that is a retcon. There was no sign of her being still manipulated at the end of #200. I'm not saying that it was an illogical plot twist, but Carol still being under Marcus's spell when she left with him is Chris Claremont's idea. Yeah, it was added in after the fact. I'm wondering whose idea it was to write her out of the series. She could have easily stayed on earth at the end of #200. I seem to recall reading something about Carol was written out because she was too powerful. However, I don't remember if that was something someone on the creative team admitted to or whether it was speculation from someone who viewed it as possible motive for a story that seems misogynistic.
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Post by spoon on Oct 3, 2024 21:43:49 GMT -5
I think of Michelinie, Layton, and Shooter as sort of the fratty clique, so the story doesn't seem so wildly out of character. I like they all had writing credits on issues during the Falcon affirmative action subplot, which I considered similar cringeworthy. In the second Michelinie/Layton run they also have story where Tony is two-timing a woman who is involved with who ends up shooting him. Obviously, that's no excuse to shoot anyone, but the story seems to portray Tony's conduct as totally fine. Also, Layton was the plotter for the Scott/Madelyne trainwreck at the beginning of X-Factor. They're all talented comic book writers, but they have produced stories that are in the same ballpark.
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Post by zaku on Oct 4, 2024 1:44:47 GMT -5
No one agrees with the story. No one. It’s just a dopey story that should have been vetoed in its plotting stage. The editor blew it and everyone had to suffer as a result. Once again it proves that “no” is a good thing to say when you have to. I would like to say, however, that this story does not arise from a vacuum but is clearly inserted into the cultural context of the time. In another thread on this forum on the same subject, someone said that, reading the pages of the readers' mail of the later issues and the fanzines of the time, no one noticed the more problematic aspects of the story. Carol A. Strickland was absolutely a voice out of the chorus. I don't want to go off-topic, but just a couple of years earlier Superboy lost his virginity to a girl who had been brainwashed by a robot pimp, so without her consent. And there, too, no one noticed anything strange.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 4, 2024 6:16:09 GMT -5
No one agrees with the story. No one. It’s just a dopey story that should have been vetoed in its plotting stage. The editor blew it and everyone had to suffer as a result. Once again it proves that “no” is a good thing to say when you have to. I would like to say, however, that this story does not arise from a vacuum but is clearly inserted into the cultural context of the time. In another thread on this forum on the same subject, someone said that, reading the pages of the readers' mail of the later issues and the fanzines of the time, no one noticed the more problematic aspects of the story. Carol A. Strickland was absolutely a voice out of the chorus. I don't want to go off-topic, but just a couple of years earlier Superboy lost his virginity to a girl who had been brainwashed by a robot pimp, so without her consent. And there, too, no one noticed anything strange. That's a good example and much more heinous than Avengers #200. Thank God that writers are more sensitive and avoid using woman as objects.
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Post by zaku on Oct 4, 2024 7:32:53 GMT -5
I would like to say, however, that this story does not arise from a vacuum but is clearly inserted into the cultural context of the time. In another thread on this forum on the same subject, someone said that, reading the pages of the readers' mail of the later issues and the fanzines of the time, no one noticed the more problematic aspects of the story. Carol A. Strickland was absolutely a voice out of the chorus. I don't want to go off-topic, but just a couple of years earlier Superboy lost his virginity to a girl who had been brainwashed by a robot pimp, so without her consent. And there, too, no one noticed anything strange. That's a good example and much more heinous than Avengers #200. Thank God that writers are more sensitive and avoid using woman as objects. If we want to look at it from a sociological point of view, the superhero is the quintessence of the male pre-pubescent fantasy. So it is understandable that until not long ago the female figure represented in this genre had at least problematic connotations.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 5, 2024 14:20:34 GMT -5
This thread has made me once again appreciate being happily married for a long time and not having to worry about any of this nonsense y'all buried the lead though... people LIKE Identity Crisis? That's the DC's Crossing! This clearly needs to be episode 13. I’m not sure what you being married has to do with a bad plot. As for ID crisis, it was a riveting story that showed real life consequences to the business the DC heroes are in. As a reader far less familiar with DC than with Marvel, I did find the story riveting and emotionally wrenching. The Dibnys came across as a wonderful couple, and I really felt Sue's loss. Since it's not an "imaginary story", however, I do understand how Identity Crisis would prove to be very hard to manage within the DC continuity. It's like a Pandora's box that should not have been opened, like an in-continuity story in which Batman punches a small-time thief and leaves him severely brain damaged, or in which Superman flies in to save a cat from a tree but frightens an old lady into a terminal heart attack. We don't want to overthink the consequences of fantasy shenanigans in the real world; it would kill the fun of seeing colourful characters punching each other while trading quips!
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Oct 9, 2024 14:14:08 GMT -5
Also, to the question of whether it ever happened to a male character...
It happened to a male character in a Jim Shooter written issue of Avengers less than two years after #200 came out! In Avengers #219-220, Thor is mind-controlled by Moondragon into becoming her lover. Clearly, Shooter had not learned much. On the other hand, in regards to George Perez's involvement with Avengers #200, I would point out that a few years after this, rape and the resulting trauma was a central element to the first major storyline he wrote in Wonder Woman #1-14 when he relaunched the book in 1987. Perhaps time was a teacher here, but the care with which Perez presents that story suggests to me at least that he was not responsible for the stuff with Carol -- and if he was involved with that decision, he clearly listened to the criticisms of it.
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