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Post by commond on Sept 29, 2024 4:58:45 GMT -5
While longterm readers may not like the shrinking of the size, it is the size/format that is dominating the YA book trade market for graphic novels currently and sells better than larger formats. And for new readers, the size/price combo can be a draw. Portability, readability and affordability in a single product is a winning combination in the current book market. Add to it availability outside destination niche markets of the direct market and you have another factor that can lead to success. I've heard this format has done especially well for DC at airport bookshops where all of hose factors come into play with the customer base that would be buying there. Again, the market has evolved since the 70s/80s/90s/early00's so products have to evolve to succeed in the current marketplace, not be judged by outmoded standards of previous markets that no longer exist. -M Good points. You see more kids/YA comics in small size now, as well as all the Manga, of course. The only thing I'd argue is that most of those were created with the intention of being printed at a smaller size. Also, far fewer characters are needed when printed for a Japanese or Chinese audience than alphabet-based languages. Too many words on a page leads to an uncomfortably small font size- which kids/YA smaller-sized books wisely avoid. I definitely see why smaller/cheaper books sell more at airports, though. I used to fly A LOT and would occasionally end up buying new books at airports- size was certainly a factor in my choice, considering the horribly strict limitations on free hand luggage applied by many airlines. Manga is drawn at a slightly small sizer than an American comic book. They're usually illustrated at B4 size then scaled down to B5 for publication in the weekly magazines and collected in B6 format as tankobon. B5 is roughly the same size as a standard American comic book. |
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Post by rich on Sept 29, 2024 5:51:11 GMT -5
Good points. You see more kids/YA comics in small size now, as well as all the Manga, of course. The only thing I'd argue is that most of those were created with the intention of being printed at a smaller size. Also, far fewer characters are needed when printed for a Japanese or Chinese audience than alphabet-based languages. Too many words on a page leads to an uncomfortably small font size- which kids/YA smaller-sized books wisely avoid. I definitely see why smaller/cheaper books sell more at airports, though. I used to fly A LOT and would occasionally end up buying new books at airports- size was certainly a factor in my choice, considering the horribly strict limitations on free hand luggage applied by many airlines. Manga is drawn at a slightly small sizer than an American comic book. They're usually illustrated at B4 size then scaled down to B5 for publication in the weekly magazines and collected in B6 format as tankobon. B5 is roughly the same size as a standard American comic book. The size of the drawings shouldn't matter too much, as opposed to doing a drawing with a specific print size in mind... I'm unfamiliar with the B sizings, but know that 'double-up' was common sizing for US comic art before they dropped the original art size lower to save on production costs. Original art post 1969/1970 is a fair bit smaller. It harmed the work of some artists, like Kirby, but they didn't change how they laid things out. I imagine the change wasn't ideal for inkers trying to produce their most polished work. |
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Post by commond on Sept 29, 2024 16:39:56 GMT -5
Manga is drawn at a slightly small sizer than an American comic book. They're usually illustrated at B4 size then scaled down to B5 for publication in the weekly magazines and collected in B6 format as tankobon. B5 is roughly the same size as a standard American comic book. The size of the drawings shouldn't matter too much, as opposed to doing a drawing with a specific print size in mind... I'm unfamiliar with the B sizings, but know that 'double-up' was common sizing for US comic art before they dropped the original art size lower to save on production costs. Original art post 1969/1970 is a fair bit smaller. It harmed the work of some artists, like Kirby, but they didn't change how they laid things out. I imagine the change wasn't ideal for inkers trying to produce their most polished work. I don't think this is the case, especially with so much of it being done digitally these days. |
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Post by rich on Sept 29, 2024 17:17:27 GMT -5
The size of the drawings shouldn't matter too much, as opposed to doing a drawing with a specific print size in mind... I'm unfamiliar with the B sizings, but know that 'double-up' was common sizing for US comic art before they dropped the original art size lower to save on production costs. Original art post 1969/1970 is a fair bit smaller. It harmed the work of some artists, like Kirby, but they didn't change how they laid things out. I imagine the change wasn't ideal for inkers trying to produce their most polished work. I don't think this is the case, especially with so much of it being done digitally these days. That's ok, we can agree to disagree. If I was commissioned to draw a postage stamp I'd produce a different composition to what I'd produce were the drawing going to be printed at A3 size, but that's just me. 🤷🏼♂️ |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 29, 2024 22:01:17 GMT -5
I'm with Slam... I wouldn't give Watchmen to someone who's not a comic fan.. it is not a starter book. I'd go with something like Kingdom Come or Busiek's Avengers. I haven’t read Busiek’s Avengers, but I kind of think Kingdom Come is as bad as Watchmen. Starting someone off in superhero comics with an Elseworlds book is a bold move. Maybe, but it does have recognizable characters that people know who they are. I think that's different than Watchmen. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 29, 2024 22:04:54 GMT -5
I'm with Slam... I wouldn't give Watchmen to someone who's not a comic fan.. it is not a starter book. I'd go with something like Kingdom Come or Busiek's Avengers. That's interesting- I personally love those two, but I think a lot of that is because of the nostalgia factor. Would a newbie appreciate all the little bits that I do? In the past I've handed out copies of DKR to friends that showed some interest in comics, and that seems to be a love/hate book. Mostly love, at least, but I don't want to scare anyone else off, and Watchmen has that name value and cachet that people can open their mind to comics as "proper literature". (Plus the absence of 'childish' characters they're familiar with can help). When I was at university, all the English Lit students were asked to buy copies of Maus- that helped open the comic book floodgates for a few of my friends there. It's not exactly fun to read, though, so the appeal is more literate than escapism. Great point! I thought when I read the original post if referred to Superheroes specificallly, but it does not, just comics. In that case, my go to is Fables. I suspect the Spirit might serve the purpose well too for some people (though it not as much my cup of tea) |
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Sept 29, 2024 22:43:32 GMT -5
I'll take this opportunity to reiterate the points David Petersen made at the keynote speech of the Ringo's several years back. If you are giving a comic to a non-comic reader to try in an effort to get them to like comics, give them something to read that they will already be inclined to like, and that is not your favorite comic or awesome super-hero story unless they are already fans of super-heroes. Find out what they like to read and watch outside of comics, things that already like and find comics that fit with that. If they like dinosaurs, give them a comic about dinosaurs. If they like sci-fi, give them a sci-fi comic etc. If they read something in comics they are already inclined to like because of the subject matter, they will have a better first experience with comics and associate comics with things that they like, and be more inclined to try more comics and maybe even start to experiment with comics in other genres.
So now, I wouldn't recommend Watchmen to someone new to comics as much as a like it, unless they enjoy either murder mysteries or apocalyptic sci-fi. Comic literacy is not a given, it's a learned skill, especially in a day and age where kids (and adults) no longer encounter comics delivered to their homes daily via a daily newspaper, so they do not automatically know how to follow the thread of words and pictures arranged in panels and pages to get a pleasant reading experience out of comics. And if what they are reading about isn't something they like already, they are not likely to persevere to learn of think of that first encounter as a positive experience no matter how much you like the comic you gave them. If however, it is a story they are interested, they are more likely to persevere long enough to get through the learning curve of comics literacy and more likely to think that first encounter was a positive experience, largely because the subject matter was something they already enjoyed and provided the incentive for them to keep with the comic.
Kingdom Come is great, but if you don't already love super-heroes, there's not a lot of reason or interest in a reader to push through and keep reading if the medium o comics is not one they already enjoy. Someone who loves the DCEU though might love super-heroes enough to keep reading the comics.
Don't assume the potential readers shares your tastes or even your familiarity with how to read comics. Give them something they are already familiar with and like to hang their hat on so they can learn to love comics, not see it as a chore because they were reading something they weren't interested in. As much as some of us loved reading when we were in school, we didn't all love reading that assigned classic novel in English class despite the fact it may have been a cherished favorite of our English teacher or lit professor. For some it felt like a chore and a slog of a homework assignment because it wasn't something we were interested in even if we loved reading. Giving a new potential comic reader something to read that they aren't already interested in can have the same effect no matter how much you love it. (Yes, sometimes reading the book we weren't interested in could create a new favorite, or revisiting that book in later years could be a different experience, but that is more often than not the exception, and when it's not the reader had the benefit of already liking to read novels and the basic foundation of literacy to do so, potential comic readers who are unfamiliar with comics as medium do not have those foundational factors to build from).
So a first reaction when someone asks, what's a good graphic novel for me to try to see if I like comics shouldn't be "let me tell you about one of my absolute favorites" or "here's a list of must reads to try" instead it should to respond with a question-"So what kind o stuff do you like to read and watch outside of comics? What kind of video games do you like?" etc. or something along those lines. And armed with that, you can make some recommendations that might resonate with your reader despite their unfamiliarity with comics.
Make it about what they like, not about what you like. It needs to be a positive reading experience for them, not a validation of the things you like.
-M
PS anyone wanting to watch/listen to Petersen's keynote speech at the 2017 Ringos, it's on youtube
and if you like fantasy comics, or fantasy in general or anthropomorphic animal comics, give Petersen's Mouse Guard a try, it's amazing (and has also spawned a ttrpg if you have gamer friends and want to subtly promote a comic for them to try you can introduce them to the game)
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Post by Calidore on Sept 29, 2024 23:24:33 GMT -5
I'll take this opportunity to reiterate the points David Petersen made at the keynote speech of the Ringo's several years back. If you are giving a comic to a non-comic reader to try in an effort to get them to like comics, give them something to read that they will already be inclined to like, and that is not your favorite comic or awesome super-hero story unless they are already fans of super-heroes. Find out what they like to read and watch outside of comics, things that already like and find comics that fit with that. If they like dinosaurs, give them a comic about dinosaurs. If they like sci-fi, give them a sci-fi comic etc. If they read something in comics they are already inclined to like because of the subject matter, they will have a better first experience with comics and associate comics with things that they like, and be more inclined to try more comics and maybe even start to experiment with comics in other genres. So now, I wouldn't recommend Watchmen to someone new to comics as much as a like it, unless they enjoy either murder mysteries or apocalyptic sci-fi. Comic literacy is not a given, it's a learned skill, especially in a day and age where kids (and adults) no longer encounter comics delivered to their homes daily via a daily newspaper, so they do not automatically know how to follow the thread of words and pictures arranged in panels and pages to get a pleasant reading experience out of comics. And if what they are reading about isn't something they like already, they are not likely to persevere to learn of think of that first encounter as a positive experience no matter how much you like the comic you gave them. If however, it is a story they are interested, they are more likely to persevere long enough to get through the learning curve of comics literacy and more likely to think that first encounter was a positive experience, largely because the subject matter was something they already enjoyed and provided the incentive for them to keep with the comic. Kingdom Come is great, but if you don't already love super-heroes, there's not a lot of reason or interest in a reader to push through and keep reading if the medium o comics is not one they already enjoy. Someone who loves the DCEU though might love super-heroes enough to keep reading the comics. Don't assume the potential readers shares your tastes or even your familiarity with how to read comics. Give them something they are already familiar with and like to hang their hat on so they can learn to love comics, not see it as a chore because they were reading something they weren't interested in. As much as some of us loved reading when we were in school, we didn't all love reading that assigned classic novel in English class despite the fact it may have been a cherished favorite of our English teacher or lit professor. For some it felt like a chore and a slog of a homework assignment because it wasn't something we were interested in even if we loved reading. Giving a new potential comic reader something to read that they aren't already interested in can have the same effect no matter how much you love it. (Yes, sometimes reading the book we weren't interested in could create a new favorite, or revisiting that book in later years could be a different experience, but that is more often than not the exception, and when it's not the reader had the benefit of already liking to read novels and the basic foundation of literacy to do so, potential comic readers who are unfamiliar with comics as medium do not have those foundational factors to build from). So a first reaction when someone asks, what's a good graphic novel for me to try to see if I like comics shouldn't be "let me tell you about one of my absolute favorites" or "here's a list of must reads to try" instead it should to respond with a question-"So what kind o stuff do you like to read and watch outside of comics? What kind of video games do you like?" etc. or something along those lines. And armed with that, you can make some recommendations that might resonate with your reader despite their unfamiliarity with comics. Make it about what they like, not about what you like. It needs to be a positive reading experience for them, not a validation of the things you like. -M PS anyone wanting to watch/listen to Petersen's keynote speech at the 2017 Ringos, it's on youtube and if you like fantasy comics, or fantasy in general or anthropomorphic animal comics, give Petersen's Mouse Guard a try, it's amazing (and has also spawned a ttrpg if you have gamer friends and want to subtly promote a comic for them to try you can introduce them to the game) This, exactly. I had a friend whose young son had no use for reading at all and was annoyed when his teacher made a half hour of reading a daily homework assignment. I was helping him with his homework, so adding the reading was easy. Rather than inflict the "classics" on him, I told him that our reading would be books I thought he'd like and that he could veto anything if it wasn't working for him after giving it a fair shot. Then I started with a guaranteed winner (based on me reading it over and over as a kid): Lloyd Alexander's Prydain series. In the several years of daily reading that followed, he only used the veto once (and frankly, I deliberately gave him the opening because I was bored too), on Ray Bradbury's Dandelion Wine. Love Bradbury, but that definitely wasn't his finest moment IMO. |
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Post by rich on Sept 30, 2024 3:25:41 GMT -5
I just got a text and my friend has bought Watchmen... not in a format I was expecting. He's bought the original 12 comics! Haha, fair enough.
I very much agree about recommending people books tailored to their likes, or that you're sure they will like. When he asked me to recommend him a comic to try he said he'd heard Watchmen was excellent and if he should start there. He's prepped and ready to enjoy it, as he expects it to be really good, and had been aware of it for 30 odd years thanks to the iconic cover.
I am tempted to tell him to skip the tedious pirate guff, though. 😅 I googled that, and it's a divisive subject, with a lot of people saying they'd skipped it on any subsequent readings, and it only really worked well when people were reading one issue per month rather than binging the whole lot.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 30, 2024 10:00:47 GMT -5
I just got a text and my friend has bought Watchmen... not in a format I was expecting. He's bought the original 12 comics! Haha, fair enough. I very much agree about recommending people books tailored to their likes, or that you're sure they will like. When he asked me to recommend him a comic to try he said he'd heard Watchmen was excellent and if he should start there. He's prepped and ready to enjoy it, as he expects it to be really good, and had been aware of it for 30 odd years thanks to the iconic cover. I am tempted to tell him to skip the tedious pirate guff, though. 😅 I googled that, and it's a divisive subject, with a lot of people saying they'd skipped it on any subsequent readings, and it only really worked well when people were reading one issue per month rather than binging the whole lot. The pirate "guff" is outstanding. Not only does it mirror what's happening in the main storyline, but it's a big part of the underlying look at the history of comics that is implicit in Watchmen. |
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Post by rich on Sept 30, 2024 10:10:49 GMT -5
I just got a text and my friend has bought Watchmen... not in a format I was expecting. He's bought the original 12 comics! Haha, fair enough. I very much agree about recommending people books tailored to their likes, or that you're sure they will like. When he asked me to recommend him a comic to try he said he'd heard Watchmen was excellent and if he should start there. He's prepped and ready to enjoy it, as he expects it to be really good, and had been aware of it for 30 odd years thanks to the iconic cover. I am tempted to tell him to skip the tedious pirate guff, though. 😅 I googled that, and it's a divisive subject, with a lot of people saying they'd skipped it on any subsequent readings, and it only really worked well when people were reading one issue per month rather than binging the whole lot. The pirate "guff" is outstanding. Not only does it mirror what's happening in the main storyline, but it's a big part of the underlying look at the history of comics that is implicit in Watchmen. Exactly what I meant when I said it was divisive! It is love or hate, it seems. Maybe I should do a poll on it to see which way the forum sways. Edit: Here's an example of a Reddit debate: link |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Sept 30, 2024 12:30:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't really get the problem people have with "the pirate stuff" (or 'guff' as the case may be) in Watchmen (or the text pieces as a whole - I've seen comments where some people say they usually skip all of those when re-reading Watchmen). Whenever I read it, I go from start to finish and read every last word. All of it is there for a reason and integral to the overall story.
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Post by rich on Sept 30, 2024 12:39:34 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't really get the problem people have with "the pirate stuff" (or 'guff' as the case may be) in Watchmen (or the text pieces as a whole - I've seen comments where some people say they usually skip all of those when re-reading Watchmen). Whenever I read it, I go from start to finish and read every last word. All of it is there for a reason and integral to the overall story. Personally I have zero problem with prose in general, as I'm an avoid reader. While I really like the Watchmen comic sections, the " tedious pirate guff" was extremely pretentious twaddle, IMO. Wouldn't stop me re-reading the story multiple times, but it is much more satisfying for me, and apparently a lot of other people, if they're skipped. I'd also argue they're absolutely not essential to the story, and are a superfluous extra. My two cents. I'm delighted anyone else enjoys them, however. |
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Post by jason on Sept 30, 2024 15:14:15 GMT -5
I'd argue the only real text/backup pieces from Watchmen that are essential is Under the Hood since it fleshes out the backstory. Maybe Rorschach's psych profile too. The rest is IMO just ephemera, interesting worldbuilding but doesnt do much to add to the story for me.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 1, 2024 11:40:42 GMT -5
I'll take this opportunity to reiterate the points David Petersen made at the keynote speech of the Ringo's several years back. If you are giving a comic to a non-comic reader to try in an effort to get them to like comics, give them something to read that they will already be inclined to like, and that is not your favorite comic or awesome super-hero story unless they are already fans of super-heroes. Find out what they like to read and watch outside of comics, things that already like and find comics that fit with that. If they like dinosaurs, give them a comic about dinosaurs. If they like sci-fi, give them a sci-fi comic etc. If they read something in comics they are already inclined to like because of the subject matter, they will have a better first experience with comics and associate comics with things that they like, and be more inclined to try more comics and maybe even start to experiment with comics in other genres. So now, I wouldn't recommend Watchmen to someone new to comics as much as a like it, unless they enjoy either murder mysteries or apocalyptic sci-fi. Comic literacy is not a given, it's a learned skill, especially in a day and age where kids (and adults) no longer encounter comics delivered to their homes daily via a daily newspaper, so they do not automatically know how to follow the thread of words and pictures arranged in panels and pages to get a pleasant reading experience out of comics. And if what they are reading about isn't something they like already, they are not likely to persevere to learn of think of that first encounter as a positive experience no matter how much you like the comic you gave them. If however, it is a story they are interested, they are more likely to persevere long enough to get through the learning curve of comics literacy and more likely to think that first encounter was a positive experience, largely because the subject matter was something they already enjoyed and provided the incentive for them to keep with the comic. I agree with you in general, but while Watchmen is not a comic I would necessarily recommend to someone as an intro, I don't think the lack of background with comics is a problem. People generally know who Batman and Superman are from the television shows, and I think they figure out pretty quickly that these are superhero trope characters (and that Nite-Owl is a sort of Batman wannabe). |
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