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Post by Duragizer on Nov 24, 2018 3:40:12 GMT -5
Part of me wishes the Star Wars saga was just Rogue One and the original trilogy. The whole of me wishes the Star Wars Saga was just R1 & the OT. I also wish ROTJ was the poignant, bittersweet film Gary Kurtz had envisioned rather than the namby-pamby teddy bear picnic it is.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Nov 24, 2018 5:06:31 GMT -5
Part of me wishes the Star Wars saga was just Rogue One and the original trilogy. The whole of me wishes the Star Wars Saga was just R1 & the OT. I also wish ROTJ was the poignant, bittersweet film Gary Kurtz had envisioned rather than the namby-pamby teddy bear picnic it is. Putting aside the fact that I wholly disagree with your description of ROTJ as a "namby-pamby teddy bear picnic" *, really, it's a shame they ever made any films after the original trilogy. I mean, don't get me wrong, I loved Rogue One a lot, but I don't think it was an essential edition to the franchise. By that I mean, it was a really good SW movie, yes, but if it had never been made, we wouldn't have missed it. The prequel trilogy was very flawed (though it had it's moments), but really, we already pretty much knew everything that we needed to know about what happened prior to Episode IV from what we learned in the three OT films. The prequel trilogy was something that fans longed for, but ultimately, it was something that we didn't actually need. Besides, I don't know about you, but the version of Anakin's fall to the dark side that I played out in my imagination between 1983 and 1999, was a hell of a lot better than what we got in the prequels. As for the sequel trilogy, TFA was a lazy, uninspired retread of ANH and a case of "all surface, no depth", while TLJ was honestly one of the most badly made pieces of mainstream Hollywood cinema that I've ever seen. Just a terrible movie. However, the biggest problem with the sequel trilogy for me is that, in having the Empire rise again and the galactic civil war re-start, it destroys any sense of heroic accomplishment in the OT. It's impossible to watch the climax of ROTJ now in the same way we did prior to 2015, because we know that, 30 years down the line, things are right back to how they were: Rebels (Resistance) vs. Empire (First Order). * ROTJ might be the weakest instalment of the original trilogy, but it's still a magical film that will be delighting generations of kids for many, many decades to come. As for the Ewoks, they really are a quintessentially Star Wars concept and their victory over the Empire is the underlying theme of the OT writ large. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you don't like the Ewoks, then you don't really get Star Wars.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2018 7:53:52 GMT -5
The whole of me wishes the Star Wars Saga was just R1 & the OT. I also wish ROTJ was the poignant, bittersweet film Gary Kurtz had envisioned rather than the namby-pamby teddy bear picnic it is. Putting aside the fact that I wholly disagree with your description of ROTJ as a "namby-pamby teddy bear picnic" *, really, it's a shame they ever made any films after the original trilogy. I mean, don't get me wrong, I loved Rogue One a lot, but I don't think it was an essential edition to the franchise. By that I mean, it was a really good SW movie, yes, but if it had never been made, we wouldn't have missed it. The prequel trilogy was very flawed (though it had it's moments), but really, we already pretty much knew everything that we needed to know about what happened prior to Episode IV from what we learned in the three OT films. The prequel trilogy was something that fans longed for, but ultimately, it was something that we didn't actually need. Besides, I don't know about you, but the version of Anakin's fall to the dark side that I played out in my imagination between 1983 and 1999, was a hell of a lot better than what we got in the prequels. As for the sequel trilogy, TFA was a lazy, uninspired retread of ANH and a case of "all surface, no depth", while TLJ was honestly one of the most badly made pieces of mainstream Hollywood cinema that I've ever seen. Just a terrible movie. However, the biggest problem with the sequel trilogy for me is that, in having the Empire rise again and the galactic civil war re-start, it destroys any sense of heroic accomplishment in the OT. It's impossible to watch the climax of ROTJ now in the same way we did prior to 2015, because we know that, 30 years down the line, things are right back to how they were: Rebels (Resistance) vs. Empire (First Order). * ROTJ might be the weakest instalment of the original trilogy, but it's still a magical film that will be delighting generations of kids for many, many decades to come. As for the Ewoks, they really are a quintessentially Star Wars concept and their victory over the Empire is the underlying theme of the OT writ large. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you don't like the Ewoks, then you don't really get Star Wars. Personally, ROTJ is my favorite Star Wars Film and the reasons for that is the Ewoks. What you written "quintessentially Star Wars concept" ... you are right on the nose. Thanks for sharing that.
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Post by Duragizer on Nov 24, 2018 18:18:53 GMT -5
* ROTJ might be the weakest instalment of the original trilogy, but it's still a magical film that will be delighting generations of kids for many, many decades to come. I was one of those kids, so I don't doubt that in the least. The Ewoks aren't really what make me dislike ROTJ; I'm not a fan of the critters, but if they were all that I found wrong with the movie, I'd still be a fan of the movie. Everything else about the movie — especially Vader's unearned "redemption" — bother me far more.
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rossn
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Post by rossn on Nov 27, 2018 10:12:54 GMT -5
I very much enjoy Han in these comics but I think the old Brian Daley books from the late 70s/early 80s and A.C. Crispin's trilogy from the 1990s might have been more influential in Solo.
I strongly recommend all six books, they offer a great glimpse of young Han (Crispin) and immediately before ANY Han (Daely.)
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 27, 2018 13:00:32 GMT -5
Part of me wishes the Star Wars saga was just Rogue One and the original trilogy. The whole of me wishes the Star Wars Saga was just R1 & the OT. I also wish ROTJ was the poignant, bittersweet film Gary Kurtz had envisioned rather than the namby-pamby teddy bear picnic it is. Eh? The Ewoks were not the focus of the film, and did not occupy much screen time. Luke's arc was the centerpiece, and that was as effective / powerful as anything from ANH or TESB. Regarding the "poignant, bittersweet film" Kurtz wanted, and for that matter, Kasdan's desire to kill off a main character, neither were the point of a story that had to end with personal triumph and redemption, particularly after the heroes were so devastated in the middle act one film earlier. Luke's scenes--from Tatooine to Dagobah, Endor (facing Vader), to the second Death Star were among anything one would call Star Wars at its best, and for me, that was the only takeaway from the film when I walked out of that theatre in 1983.
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Post by aquagoat on Nov 27, 2018 13:24:44 GMT -5
The whole of me wishes the Star Wars Saga was just R1 & the OT. I also wish ROTJ was the poignant, bittersweet film Gary Kurtz had envisioned rather than the namby-pamby teddy bear picnic it is. However, the biggest problem with the sequel trilogy for me is that, in having the Empire rise again and the galactic civil war re-start, it destroys any sense of heroic accomplishment in the OT. It's impossible to watch the climax of ROTJ now in the same way we did prior to 2015, because we know that, 30 years down the line, things are right back to how they were: Rebels (Resistance) vs. Empire (First Order). It depends which film you're watching. From the perspective of Return of the Jedi, Return of the Jedi is the end of the trilogy. From the perspective of the prequels, Return of the Jedi is the end of a six-film saga. From the perspective of the sequel trilogy, Return of the Jedi is part of the middle act of a three-act saga. I think a piece of art should be viewed as how it was intended and the intention behind it, not what someone else came up with later to milk a cash cow. Return of the Jedi is the end of the Star Wars trilogy.
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Post by aquagoat on Nov 27, 2018 13:29:16 GMT -5
Part of me wishes the Star Wars saga was just Rogue One and the original trilogy. The whole of me wishes the Star Wars Saga was just R1 & the OT. I also wish ROTJ was the poignant, bittersweet film Gary Kurtz had envisioned rather than the namby-pamby teddy bear picnic it is. I like a lot of RotJ - the Vader/Luke/Emperor scenes are among my favourite scenes in any movie - but certainly it could have been so much better. There were so many great ideas dropped - Han dying, the Emperor's throne room in a volcanic cave, Ben and Yoda turning up for the final battle, Luke and Leia going their separate ways at the end...
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Post by Duragizer on Nov 27, 2018 16:27:27 GMT -5
The whole of me wishes the Star Wars Saga was just R1 & the OT. I also wish ROTJ was the poignant, bittersweet film Gary Kurtz had envisioned rather than the namby-pamby teddy bear picnic it is. Eh? The Ewoks were not the focus of the film, and did not occupy much screen time. Luke's arc was the centerpiece, and that was as effective / powerful as anything from ANH or TESB. Like I said to Confessor previously, the Ewoks are the least of my problems with ROTJ. Unfortunately, I don't believe a mass murderer can earn redemption performing a single good deed (a single good deed motivated by selfish desires, at that), so I'm not moved by this so-called "redemption" whatsoever. I'll admit Luke was the best thing about ROTJ. If he'd skewered Palpatine at first opportunity instead of playing the Gandhi card, I'd absolutely love him.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Nov 27, 2018 17:20:09 GMT -5
However, the biggest problem with the sequel trilogy for me is that, in having the Empire rise again and the galactic civil war re-start, it destroys any sense of heroic accomplishment in the OT. It's impossible to watch the climax of ROTJ now in the same way we did prior to 2015, because we know that, 30 years down the line, things are right back to how they were: Rebels (Resistance) vs. Empire (First Order). It depends which film you're watching. From the perspective of Return of the Jedi, Return of the Jedi is the end of the trilogy. From the perspective of the prequels, Return of the Jedi is the end of a six-film saga. From the perspective of the sequel trilogy, Return of the Jedi is part of the middle act of a three-act saga. I think a piece of art should be viewed as how it was intended and the intention behind it, not what someone else came up with later to milk a cash cow. Return of the Jedi is the end of the Star Wars trilogy. Well yeah, that's precisely my point. To continue the saga after ROTJ -- and especially to do it with the Empire rearing it's head again -- diminishes both the sacrifices made by the characters in the original trilogy (and to a lesser degree the prequel trilogy) and also thwarts the climax of the entire saga that ROTJ was meant to be. Now admittedly, George Lucas himself always talked about Star Wars being a 9-part saga, back on the '80s, but he finally realised the folly of that when he was making the prequel trilogy, which prompted him to announce that there would be no Episodes VII-IX. If course, it's been fairly well documented that, when it came to selling the Star Wars franchise to Disney, Lucas offered them rough story outlines for Episodes VII-IX, which they ultimate rejected. Now, I don't know if these were really old draft scripts from the '80s, or if they were something that Lucas wrote in the early 2010s to sweeten the deal for whoever might but Star Wars. Regardless, ROTJ is clearly the end of the story and the associated character arcs (Anakin/Vader's especially) that were begun in TPM.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Nov 27, 2018 17:35:45 GMT -5
There were so many great ideas dropped - Han dying, the Emperor's throne room in a volcanic cave, Ben and Yoda turning up for the final battle, Luke and Leia going their separate ways at the end... Sorry to say this, but those all sound like inferior and less climactic story ideas to me than what we got. I think that, if indeed all of those ideas were legitimately up for consideration (Han dying and the Emporer's volcanic cave are the only two I've heard of), then I think they were best left out of the film. In particular, Han dying in ROTJ would've ruined his character arc, in light of the pain and suffering that he had had to endure at the end of ESB. It's much more meaningful and satisfying to have this once self-centred, loner smuggler find love and be put through a life-changing event that leads him to accept his place in a larger family of friends and the Alliance, than to simply kill him off. Unfortunately, I don't believe a mass murderer can earn redemption performing a single good deed (a single good deed motivated by selfish desires, at that), so I'm not moved by this so-called "redemption" whatsoever. You've misunderstood that scene completely: Vader's redemption comes from his renouncing of the Dark Side, his saving his son's life and his killing of the Emporer. In doing so, Vader didn't just save one life, he saved billions and effectively ended the galactic civil war.
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Post by aquagoat on Nov 27, 2018 18:20:36 GMT -5
There were so many great ideas dropped - Han dying, the Emperor's throne room in a volcanic cave, Ben and Yoda turning up for the final battle, Luke and Leia going their separate ways at the end... Sorry to say this, but those all sound like inferior and less climactic story ideas to me than what we got. I think that, if indeed all of those ideas were legitimately up for consideration (Han dying and the Emporer's volcanic cave are the only two I've heard of), then I think they were best left out of the film. In particular, Han dying in ROTJ would've ruined his character arc, in light of the pain and suffering that he had had to endure at the end of ESB. It's much more meaningful and satisfying to have this once self-centred, loner smuggler find love and be put through a life-changing event that leads him to accept his place in a larger family of friends and the Alliance, than to simply kill him off. But the result is, as soon as Han wakes up from the Carbonite, he has absolutely nothing to do for the rest of thee film. As Harrison Ford said, kill the sucker and add some weight to the film. You talk about his character arc going from selfish loner to team player, but a greater arc would be selfish git to someone who sacrifices his life for others.
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Post by aquagoat on Nov 27, 2018 18:24:38 GMT -5
It depends which film you're watching. From the perspective of Return of the Jedi, Return of the Jedi is the end of the trilogy. From the perspective of the prequels, Return of the Jedi is the end of a six-film saga. From the perspective of the sequel trilogy, Return of the Jedi is part of the middle act of a three-act saga. I think a piece of art should be viewed as how it was intended and the intention behind it, not what someone else came up with later to milk a cash cow. Return of the Jedi is the end of the Star Wars trilogy. Well yeah, that's precisely my point. To continue the saga after ROTJ -- and especially to do it with the Empire rearing it's head again -- diminishes both the sacrifices made by the characters in the original trilogy (and to a lesser degree the prequel trilogy) and also thwarts the climax of the entire saga that ROTJ was meant to be. Now admittedly, George Lucas himself always talked about Star Wars being a 9-part saga, back on the '80s, but he finally realised the folly of that when he was making the prequel trilogy, which prompted him to announce that there would be no Episodes VII-IX. If course, it's been fairly well documented that, when it came to selling the Star Wars franchise to Disney, Lucas offered them rough story outlines for Episodes VII-IX, which they ultimate rejected. Now, I don't know if these were really old draft scripts from the '80s, or if they were something that Lucas wrote in the early 2010s to sweeten the deal for whoever might but Star Wars. Regardless, ROTJ is clearly the end of the story and the associated character arcs (Anakin/Vader's especially) that were begun in TPM. Lucas constantly changed his mind between a 6, 9, and 12 film saga. He's never consistent about it from 1977 to the present day. However, it is known that when making Return of the Jedi, he put all his ideas for episodes 7-9 into that, so he could get Star Wars over and done with. Originally Luke was only to find out who his sister was (i.e. not Leia) in episode 7 and meet the Emperor in episode 9.
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 27, 2018 22:43:32 GMT -5
But the result is, as soon as Han wakes up from the Carbonite, he has absolutely nothing to do for the rest of thee film. As Harrison Ford said, kill the sucker and add some weight to the film. You talk about his character arc going from selfish loner to team player, but a greater arc would be selfish git to someone who sacrifices his life for others. [/quote] Ford always seemed bitter that the Star Wars films were Luke's story with no equal focus on Han Solo. He said as much in a few 1983 interviews leading up the premiere of ROTJ. Moreover, he was no writer, as he did not understand that his character made a journey as well, but it was never intended to hold the same level of importance as Luke's to the overall story. By ROTJ, arguably, he had more to do than he did in the first movie; it was no longer Han & his Wookie partner getting caught up in the mission to deliver the Death Star plans to Alderaan--he was now Han the general, leading in and fighting in the Endor ground war not to mention firmly establishing his relationship with Leia. Han did not need more to do in that film.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Nov 27, 2018 23:16:49 GMT -5
But the result is, as soon as Han wakes up from the Carbonite, he has absolutely nothing to do for the rest of thee film. As Harrison Ford said, kill the sucker and add some weight to the film. You talk about his character arc going from selfish loner to team player, but a greater arc would be selfish git to someone who sacrifices his life for others. Kinda echoing what Tarkintino has said above, but after Han is rescued, ROTJ isn't really about him anymore...at least, he's not the primary focus of the story. It's all about Luke and Vader. Solo played his part in the smashing of Jabba's crime empire and killed Boba Fett, despite being blind, before leading the ground assault on the shield generator on Endor. He really didn't need to do more. As for Ford's comments, they were born far more from his own boredom with and dislike for the Star Wars franchise as a whole than any legitimate story concerns.
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