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Post by Duragizer on Nov 28, 2018 17:32:36 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I don't believe a mass murderer can earn redemption performing a single good deed (a single good deed motivated by selfish desires, at that), so I'm not moved by this so-called "redemption" whatsoever. You've misunderstood that scene completely: Vader's redemption comes from his renouncing of the Dark Side, his saving his son's life and his killing of the Emporer. In doing so, Vader didn't just save one life, he saved billions and effectively ended the galactic civil war. I'm aware of how the scene is supposed to come across; it doesn't wash for me. Even if I choose to be generous and accept Vader's saving of Luke's life as a consequence of his renunciation of the dark side rather than him acting in his own self interest to propagate his genes, it's too little, too late; it doesn't absolve him of the guilt of the thousands/millions/billions he personally murdered or let die through inaction. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
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Post by lordyam on Nov 29, 2018 18:25:37 GMT -5
You've misunderstood that scene completely: Vader's redemption comes from his renouncing of the Dark Side, his saving his son's life and his killing of the Emporer. In doing so, Vader didn't just save one life, he saved billions and effectively ended the galactic civil war. I'm aware of how the scene is supposed to come across; it doesn't wash for me. Even if I choose to be generous and accept Vader's saving of Luke's life as a consequence of his renunciation of the dark side rather than him acting in his own self interest to propagate his genes, it's too little, too late; it doesn't absolve him of the guilt of the thousands/millions/billions he personally murdered or let die through inaction. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. With Vader karma caught up to him years ago. He knows he destroyed his own life and that it’s his fault but feels it’s too late to go back so he might as well go in. When Luke resisted the lure after palp threw him under a bus he finally realized that he was being weak
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Post by Duragizer on Nov 29, 2018 22:33:57 GMT -5
Truth be told, I'm not much of a Star Wars fan anymore. I still have an affinity for the OT's protagonists and the visuals, but I don't like any of the villains and find the universe's moral worldview grossly simplistic. So no, ROTJ doesn't appeal to me; the PT doesn't appeal to me; roughly half the EU doesn't appeal to me; and the ST certainly doesn't appeal to me. Hell, just call me a lapsed Star Wars fan, since the vast majority of it doesn't resonate with me at all.
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Post by aquagoat on Nov 30, 2018 17:12:54 GMT -5
Ford always seemed bitter that the Star Wars films were Luke's story with no equal focus on Han Solo. He said as much in a few 1983 interviews leading up the premiere of ROTJ. Moreover, he was no writer, as he did not understand that his character made a journey as well, but it was never intended to hold the same level of importance as Luke's to the overall story. By ROTJ, arguably, he had more to do than he did in the first movie; it was no longer Han & his Wookie partner getting caught up in the mission to deliver the Death Star plans to Alderaan--he was now Han the general, leading in and fighting in the Endor ground war not to mention firmly establishing his relationship with Leia. Han did not need more to do in that film. Han took part in a military campaign in RotJ, shot some people and blew up a a building...it's not exactly character development, and it's no wonder Ford looks bored throughout. All the great character stuff created in A New Hope, and developed in Empire...and then in the third film he's a slightly goofy third wheel who just does action scenes. It's a complete waste. Ford was absolutely right that he should have sacrificed himself.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Nov 30, 2018 19:17:51 GMT -5
Ford always seemed bitter that the Star Wars films were Luke's story with no equal focus on Han Solo. He said as much in a few 1983 interviews leading up the premiere of ROTJ. Moreover, he was no writer, as he did not understand that his character made a journey as well, but it was never intended to hold the same level of importance as Luke's to the overall story. By ROTJ, arguably, he had more to do than he did in the first movie; it was no longer Han & his Wookie partner getting caught up in the mission to deliver the Death Star plans to Alderaan--he was now Han the general, leading in and fighting in the Endor ground war not to mention firmly establishing his relationship with Leia. Han did not need more to do in that film. Han took part in a military campaign in RotJ, shot some people and blew up a a building...it's not exactly character development, and it's no wonder Ford looks bored throughout. All the great character stuff created in A New Hope, and developed in Empire...and then in the third film he's a slightly goofy third wheel who just does action scenes. It's a complete waste. Ford was absolutely right that he should have sacrificed himself. Solo's character development in ROTJ isn't directly related to his actions in the film though. The biggest development to the character was how his entire demeanour and outlook changed and matured between ESB and ROTJ, as a result of his having lost six months of his life and almost died in carbon freeze. The Solo we see in ROTJ is a very different character to the one we last saw on Bespin Cloud City.
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Post by aquagoat on Dec 3, 2018 15:06:23 GMT -5
Solo's character development in ROTJ isn't directly related to his actions in the film though. The biggest development to the character was how his entire demeanour and outlook changed and matured between ESB and ROTJ, as a result of his having lost six months of his life and almost died in carbon freeze. The Solo we see in ROTJ is a very different character to the one we last saw on Bespin Cloud City. The carbon freezing makes no difference to Han's character at all. You say he's matured, but he is actually a lot more immature in Return of the Jedi, and has lost the street smarts he had in the previous two movies. In fact, Luke and Leia start to regard him as a third wheel and even a joke at certain points.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 3, 2018 18:55:01 GMT -5
The carbon freezing makes no difference to Han's character at all. Its all about solemnly accepting his fate and not complaining about it. In that scene (carbon freezing), Han is the one who does not protest or attempt to fight like Chewbacca. He calms his friend, and does not even shed a tear as he looks at his friends for what he likely believed would be the last time (not to mention knowing Luke was on his way into an unavoidable trap). That's character growth from the self-serving guy who made a last minute change of heart in the last act of Star Wars. Where--exactly--is there any on-screen moment of the others treating and/or considering him a joke? No one questions the Rebellion making him a general and leading the strike team to Endor, or mocks his actions. Once there, the most obvious sign of "comic relief" was being captured by the Ewoks--which by the way--snared everyone, including the main hero, yet it did not render them jokes or not to be taken seriously in-universe, or by the audience.
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Post by Confessor on Dec 3, 2018 21:16:35 GMT -5
Solo's character development in ROTJ isn't directly related to his actions in the film though. The biggest development to the character was how his entire demeanour and outlook changed and matured between ESB and ROTJ, as a result of his having lost six months of his life and almost died in carbon freeze. The Solo we see in ROTJ is a very different character to the one we last saw on Bespin Cloud City. The carbon freezing makes no difference to Han's character at all. Sorry, but if you really believe that, I don't think you've understood a damn thing about those films. Really, I'm utterly staggered by this comment. There's really not much more to say on the matter because clearly the gulf between how I experience the original trilogy and what you're getting from those films are poles apart. You might as well say that using the Force to blow up the Death Star makes no difference to Luke's character. I think I'm done discussing this with you. We're not just on different pages here, you're not even reading from the same book that I am.
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Post by aquagoat on Dec 4, 2018 14:04:53 GMT -5
The carbon freezing makes no difference to Han's character at all. Sorry, but if you really believe that, I don't think you've understood a damn thing about those films. Really, I'm utterly staggered by this comment. There's really not much more to say on the matter because clearly the gulf between how I experience the original trilogy and what you're getting from those films are poles apart. You might as well say that using the Force to blow up the Death Star makes no difference to Luke's character. I think I'm done discussing this with you. We're not just on different pages here, you're not even reading from the same book that I am. Bit OTT, Confessor. You really don't like being disagreed with, do you?
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Post by aquagoat on Dec 4, 2018 14:08:16 GMT -5
Where--exactly--is there any on-screen moment of the others treating and/or considering him a joke? On Endor, Luke tells Han to take out the Storm Troopers quietly. Han says, 'Hey - it's me!' and the audience is supposed to laugh. Luke and Leia look at each other knowingly, like he's a liability. And low and behold, he steps on a twig, comedically, and messes up everything. A world away from the street smart Han of the first two movies.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 4, 2018 14:51:31 GMT -5
Where--exactly--is there any on-screen moment of the others treating and/or considering him a joke? On Endor, Luke tells Han to take out the Storm Troopers quietly. Han says, 'Hey - it's me!' and the audience is supposed to laugh. Luke and Leia look at each other knowingly, like he's a liability. And low and behold, he steps on a twig, comedically, and messes up everything. A world away from the street smart Han of the first two movies. Luke and Leia look at each other with a knowing understanding (one the audience gets) that Han is just being Han-- confident in his abilities, a trait he displayed in all three of the Original Trilogy films. He was not made to be a joke. As noted yesterday, the only true comic relief came when all were captured by the Ewoks, dangling and struggling in the net until R2 cuts the net and drops them to the ground like anything one would see in an episode of Gilligan's Island. Again, that happened to all of the heroes present in that scene.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Dec 4, 2018 17:12:02 GMT -5
Sorry, but if you really believe that, I don't think you've understood a damn thing about those films. Really, I'm utterly staggered by this comment. There's really not much more to say on the matter because clearly the gulf between how I experience the original trilogy and what you're getting from those films are poles apart. You might as well say that using the Force to blow up the Death Star makes no difference to Luke's character. I think I'm done discussing this with you. We're not just on different pages here, you're not even reading from the same book that I am. Bit OTT, Confessor. You really don't like being disagreed with, do you? It's not that you disagree with me that's the issue; it's that what you're taking away from those films seems so far removed from what I get from them that there's little or no common ground in which to have a decent discussion. I'm simply withdrawing from the conversation because I don't see anywhere meaningful left to go with it.
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Post by aquagoat on Dec 4, 2018 18:40:28 GMT -5
On Endor, Luke tells Han to take out the Storm Troopers quietly. Han says, 'Hey - it's me!' and the audience is supposed to laugh. Luke and Leia look at each other knowingly, like he's a liability. And low and behold, he steps on a twig, comedically, and messes up everything. A world away from the street smart Han of the first two movies. Luke and Leia look at each other with a knowing understanding (one the audience gets) that Han is just being Han-- confident in his abilities, a trait he displayed in all three of the Original Trilogy films. He was not made to be a joke. As noted yesterday, the only true comic relief came when all were captured by the Ewoks, dangling and struggling in the net until R2 cuts the net and drops them to the ground like anything one would see in an episode of Gilligan's Island. Again, that happened to all of the heroes present in that scene. It's not 'knowing understanding' that Han is just being Han - why would they do that? Go and watch the scene again. Luke tells Han to do it 'quietly' - he doesn't trust Han to do it properly, and Han says, 'Hey - it's me!' and it's comic relief. Luke and Leia's look is one of not trusting Han to do it properly - and he doesn't. Han messes it up, and Luke says, 'Great' sarcastically. You see, the way Return of the Jedi is written is to make Han less impressive so Luke can come to the forefront as the hero. In the first two movies Han was in charge, but in Jedi it's Luke who is the dominant hero. Han becomes comic relief. You can deny it because you love Han, but it's exactly what happens in the film. <iframe width="20.25999999999999" height="8.740000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 20.26px; height: 8.74px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 14px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_3099692" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="20.25999999999999" height="8.740000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 20.26px; height: 8.74px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 957px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_25987351" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="20.25999999999999" height="8.740000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 20.26px; height: 8.74px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 14px; top: 374px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_77203702" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="20.25999999999999" height="8.740000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 20.26px; height: 8.74px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 957px; top: 374px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_33467915" scrolling="no"></iframe> Also, you're ignoring the bit where Luke tries not to laugh at Han getting upset at Threepio when they are captured by the Ewoks.
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Post by rossn on Dec 5, 2018 10:35:46 GMT -5
Where--exactly--is there any on-screen moment of the others treating and/or considering him a joke? On Endor, Luke tells Han to take out the Storm Troopers quietly. Han says, 'Hey - it's me!' and the audience is supposed to laugh. Luke and Leia look at each other knowingly, like he's a liability. And low and behold, he steps on a twig, comedically, and messes up everything. A world away from the street smart Han of the first two movies. Amusingly the West End Games Star Wars roleplaying game used that exact scene as an emample of a botched skill roll... and then pointed out how it indirectly led our heroes to the Ewoks (as a point gamesmasters can make even bad luck for the players help the story.) To paraphrase the rulebook: 'The future of the galaxy turned on Han Solo failing a Stealth check.'
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 5, 2018 13:25:18 GMT -5
Luke tells Han to do it 'quietly' - he doesn't trust Han to do it properly, and Han says, 'Hey - it's me!' and it's comic relief. Luke and Leia's look is one of not trusting Han to do it properly You have a gross misunderstanding of the character. In every film, Han has a certain amount of skill, and that has made him overconfident. Luke and Leia's reaction is an acknowledgement of that between themselves, and for the benefit of the audience who would instantly understand. What?? What films were you watching? In all 3 OT movies, Luke is the far and away hero with the most important/memorable heroic moments. By the end of TESB--a film where he singlehandedly destroyed a AT-AT, and faced the greatest evil in the galaxy, he tops it off with a classic hero's reaction in allowing himself to fall to what he believed would be his death, instead of selling his soul to the dark side. The reason Luke is such a well-loved character is that he's the consummate, classic learning hero throughout. There's never any doubt who the greatest hero is, even when his companions have their own heroic journeys. I gave you an example (the Ewok net) of all characters---with the exception of Leia--being comic relief in ROTJ, thus there's no focus on Han. But above all others, C-3PO is the center of comic relief of the film with his dialogue at Jabba's palace (always afraid), R2 butting him off of the Sail Barge, and his fear and bumbling on Endor. That's not comic relief. Han always found a reason to be annoyed with 3-PO usually justified), and Luke's reaction is--once again--an acknowledgement of what he and the audience have come to know, or expect.
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