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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 12, 2019 15:07:40 GMT -5
Funny enough I read The Cult before I ever read Knightfall, and yeah I know I am a Starlin fanboy, but Blackfire was way more of an interesting character, and defeated Batman in both mind and body more than Bane in my opinion. Batman resorted to means he would have never done before to defeat Blackfire and his cult if he hadn't thought they represented the threat that they did, after what he went through. Plus Blackfire was far more ruthless, be it from, possibly being psychotic, or just delusions of grandeur, and blood thirsty to a fault. Nothing Bane brought to the table out did Blackfire to me.
Plus the Cult was a great story of using a character for just what Starlin created him for, showing Batman has weaknesses. And it was in four concise issues and not the long drawn out event Knightfall was.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 12, 2019 15:12:47 GMT -5
Jim Starlin was one of the very worst Batman writers ever. There. I said it.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 12, 2019 15:15:07 GMT -5
Jim Starlin was one of the very worst Batman writers ever. There. I said it. You must be a Robin fan.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 12, 2019 15:24:51 GMT -5
Jim Starlin was one of the very worst Batman writers ever. There. I said it. You must be a Robin fan. Nah...I voted to kill the little turd. And I want my money for my phone call back. DC is in breach of contract. Though I didn't mind Jason Todd (I also didn't like him) before O'Neil, Max Alan Collins (also one of the worst Batman writers ever) and Starlin destroyed the character.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 15:27:50 GMT -5
codystarbuck and @taxidriver1980 , I don't follow wrestling at all and couldn't make heads or tails of what you guys were posting. All you need to do is buy the first 35 WrestleMania PPVs on Blu-ray - and then we can talk. Lots of hours viewing, so see ya then!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 15:28:14 GMT -5
Jim Starlin was one of the very worst Batman writers ever. There. I said it. You must be a Robin fan. Nah, I voted for Jason Todd to die, and I am a big Starlin fan, but I agree with Slam, Starlin's Batman run wasn't very good and he was ill suited to the book at the time. This was a period when he was looking at doing more prose and stepping away from the traditional grooves he worked in, but some of the stuff he stepped into in its stead didn't fit his sensibilities well. He was also seemingly obsessed with serial killers and slashers at this time as they featured in both his Batman run and in his prose work, I didn't mind the Cult so much, but his run on the main title rarely rose to the level of mediocrity and mostly wallowed in dreck. -M
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 12, 2019 15:28:17 GMT -5
I never even knew Max Allan Collins wrote any Batman.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 12, 2019 15:30:42 GMT -5
Nah, I voted for Jason Todd to die, and I am a big Starlin fan, but I agree with Slam, Starlin's Batman run wasn't very good and he was ill suited to the book at the time. This was a period when he was looking at doing more prose and stepping away form the traditional grooves he worked in, but some of the stuff he stepped into in its stead didn't fit his sensibilities well. I didn't mind the Cult so much, but his run on the main title rarely rose to the level of mediocrity and mostly wallowed in dreck. -M I didn't mind Jason Todd, as Robin. And yeah Batman is definitely a step out of Starlin's usual writing direction, and you can tell in the Batman title. But I still think The Cult was a solid story. Whether that's my bias showing or not I can't say. There's things of Starlin I don't like so I know I am not completely biased. :-)
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 12, 2019 15:33:40 GMT -5
I never even knew Max Allan Collins wrote any Batman. It was a short run right before Starlin. He and O'Neil sowed the seeds that Starlin would follow. Really just awful stuff. I like Collins. Loved Ms. Tree. Loved Road to Perdition. Like a lot of his prose work. But his run on Batman and Wild Dog were garbage.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 15:37:36 GMT -5
I never even knew Max Allan Collins wrote any Batman. It was a short run right before Starlin. He and O'Neil sowed the seeds that Starlin would follow. Really just awful stuff. I like Collins. Loved Ms. Tree. Loved Road to Perdition. Like a lot of his prose work. But his run on Batman and Wild Dog were garbage. the run is collected in this trade... I picked it up at Ollie's for $3, and I might have overpaid. I too like a lot of Collins stuff, and he should have been a good fit for Batman, but he just wasn't. Now whether that was O'Neil's editorial mandates or something else, I don't know, but yeah it was disappointing. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 12, 2019 15:50:07 GMT -5
It was a short run right before Starlin. He and O'Neil sowed the seeds that Starlin would follow. Really just awful stuff. I like Collins. Loved Ms. Tree. Loved Road to Perdition. Like a lot of his prose work. But his run on Batman and Wild Dog were garbage. the run is collected in this trade... I picked it up at Ollie's for $3, and I might have overpaid. I too like a lot of Collins stuff, and he should have been a good fit for Batman, but he just wasn't. Now whether that was O'Neil's editorial mandates or something else, I don't know, but yeah it was disappointing. -M I wonder the same thing. Because Collins seems like a no-brainer for Batman. I think there's a decent amount of O'Neil working here, because I have read that he didn't like Jason Todd as the character stood when O'Neil took over the Bat-Books. But both Collins and Starlin were just abominable on that book. And I was sadly in a completest phase at the time and kept buying.
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Jun 12, 2019 16:25:30 GMT -5
If you think the Starlin era was bad, the early 2000s made it look like The Caine Mutiny in comparison. It's astounding how terrible that period was, from Officer Down to War Games. It really took Grant Morrison taking over to restore a semblance of anything resembling decent writing to Batman. It's hard to tell how much of this was editorial and how much was the writers, but the editors definitely have a lot of the blame for the travesty that was the bat-books in this era.
Dan Didio is the worst thing to ever happen to DC comics. There I said it.
Looking at his record, Didio's 'skillset' is in marketing, but he fancies himself a writer and was promoted far beyond his level of incompetency to editor despite having no skills in either category. His written works, like 'Countdown to Final Crisis' which he claimed would be '52 done right,' are some of the worst comics ever printed. His editorial dictates are based purely on short-term marketing considerations with no thought given to creative factors. He supposedly made the decision to permanently get rid of a great character who had had a long-running successful series because he didn't like the description in the que line of a Six Flags ride, and based on what else he's done I believe it. He wants to take credit for making Stephanie Brown Robin for 3 issues just to make her death - which the writers were nearly unanimously against - have more impact. But the writer on Robin at the time, Bill Willingham, said that he decided to make her Robin to give her a little moment of triumph since editorial ordered that she be killed before he started his run. Willingham acknowledged that it didn't work out and the whole story ended up being awful, while Didio tried to make it seem that he was the genius behind the idea. So yeah, I think Didio is lying in trying to take credit for what Willingham did while also claiming that a terrible story was really wonderful all because of him.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 12, 2019 16:33:07 GMT -5
If you think the Starlin era was bad, the early 2000s made it look like The Caine Mutiny in comparison. It's astounding how terrible that period was, from Officer Down to War Games. It really took Grant Morrison taking over to restore a semblance of anything resembling decent writing to Batman. It's hard to tell how much of this was editorial and how much was the writers, but the editors definitely have a lot of the blame for the travesty that was the bat-books in this era. I had long since stopped reading Batman comics by that time.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 12, 2019 17:06:16 GMT -5
Dan Didio is the worst thing to ever happen to DC comics. There I said it. Amen, brother!
Cei-U! I approve this message!
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Post by kasparhauser on Jun 13, 2019 16:12:55 GMT -5
If you think the Starlin era was bad, the early 2000s made it look like The Caine Mutiny in comparison. It's astounding how terrible that period was, from Officer Down to War Games. It really took Grant Morrison taking over to restore a semblance of anything resembling decent writing to Batman. It's hard to tell how much of this was editorial and how much was the writers, but the editors definitely have a lot of the blame for the travesty that was the bat-books in this era. I had long since stopped reading Batman comics by that time. 2000s Batman is awful, including Morrison. I prefer Scott Snyder by far, and the other guy, whose name I have forgotten Starlin's run was not bad, IMO. I liked the attempt to use a "street level only" Batman. But ironically, his most famous story "Death In The Family" is actually his weakest (such a non-sensical turd).
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