|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 29, 2020 4:40:04 GMT -5
What haven't I complained about in a while..
Y: The Last Man has less character and plot development that your average month of Garfield. The first and the last issues are really good, and that is nice because you can read the last issue right after the first and not miss anything from the issues in between.
Although I suspect this total lack of depth contributed to it's popularity - Like new comic readers who were struggling with the graphic format could pick up Y and not have to worry about following the story, because all the events happened in a vacuum and didn't really affect the characters or dictate what happened next.
Also I've heard people say that Fables is better than Sandman. I mean, if your only quality for "better" is "lack of depth" then maaaayyyyyybe.
Actually I'm having trouble thinking of a good Vertigo series that launched between Lucifer and Scalped.
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,627
|
Post by Confessor on Jan 29, 2020 8:37:17 GMT -5
Also I've heard people say that Fables is better than Sandman. I mean, if your only quality for "better" is "lack of depth" then maaaayyyyyybe. I like both series an awful lot (although I'm currently only half way through The Sandman), but to me they're very different beasts. Sandman is definitely better written and much more intellectually and philosophically stimulating than Fables, but the latter has more action, more soap opera angst, and is generally a more charming read. Also, on a purely subjective level, I also kinda prefer Mark Buckingham's art to the artwork I've seen in the Sandman so far. But really, they're kinda apples and oranges, and not two series that I'd normally lump together and contrast, anymore than I would, say, Watchmen and Slash Maraud.
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Jan 29, 2020 10:03:57 GMT -5
What haven't I complained about in a while.. Y: The Last Man has less character and plot development that your average month of Garfield. The first and the last issues are really good, and that is nice because you can read the last issue right after the first and not miss anything from the issues in between. Although I suspect this total lack of depth contributed to it's popularity - Like new comic readers who were struggling with the graphic format could pick up Y and not have to worry about following the story, because all the events happened in a vacuum and didn't really affect the characters or dictate what happened next. WOW. Ok, that is a controversial opinion. Though to be fair, I haven't read it since it's original run so I am fuzzy on details. Without saying much, I haven't been able to bring myself to reread it due to how they ended it. Also I've heard people say that Fables is better than Sandman. I mean, if your only quality for "better" is "lack of depth" then maaaayyyyyybe. Who says that?? Sandman is among the very best work in comics as an artform ever. That said, I tend to disagree with your apparent suggestion that comics need to be "deep" to be good. Fables was excellent although it wasn't super deep or complex. It had a captivating whimsical yet heavy feeling to it, interesting lore and twist on classic stories. The premise was interesting and the character interactions were great.
That said, you can take the back half of the series and toss it in the garbage, and the story would be better for it. It felt obvious they ran out of planned story after the adversary arc was finished, and the rest of the story ranged from "obviously treading water" to "pretty good, I guess, but needlessly tragic and wholly unnecessary." Nothing that happened in the back half made the overall story better, and frankly a lot of it made it worse. The good things were not enough to offset the bad.
THERE, I SAID IT.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 29, 2020 11:10:28 GMT -5
What haven't I complained about in a while.. Y: The Last Man has less character and plot development that your average month of Garfield. The first and the last issues are really good, and that is nice because you can read the last issue right after the first and not miss anything from the issues in between. Although I suspect this total lack of depth contributed to it's popularity - Like new comic readers who were struggling with the graphic format could pick up Y and not have to worry about following the story, because all the events happened in a vacuum and didn't really affect the characters or dictate what happened next. WOW. Ok, that is a controversial opinion. Though to be fair, I haven't read it since it's original run so I am fuzzy on details. Without saying much, I haven't been able to bring myself to reread it due to how they ended it. Also I've heard people say that Fables is better than Sandman. I mean, if your only quality for "better" is "lack of depth" then maaaayyyyyybe. Who says that?? Sandman is among the very best work in comics as an artform ever. That said, I tend to disagree with your apparent suggestion that comics need to be "deep" to be good. Fables was excellent although it wasn't super deep or complex. It had a captivating whimsical yet heavy feeling to it, interesting lore and twist on classic stories. The premise was interesting and the character interactions were great.
That said, you can take the back half of the series and toss it in the garbage, and the story would be better for it. It felt obvious they ran out of planned story after the adversary arc was finished, and the rest of the story ranged from "obviously treading water" to "pretty good, I guess, but needlessly tragic and wholly unnecessary." Nothing that happened in the back half made the overall story better, and frankly a lot of it made it worse. The good things were not enough to offset the bad.
THERE, I SAID IT.
It's been years since I've read Y The Last Man so I'll leave that one alone. I pretty much agree with you otherwise. I firmly believe that Sandman is the best sustained narrative that American comics has produced. Fables doesn't hold a candle. That said, Fables is pretty enjoyable up through issue 75. It covers well trodden ground but it does so enjoyably. If it had stopped at issue 75 it would hold up a whole lot better than it does.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 29, 2020 11:28:08 GMT -5
Actually I'm having trouble thinking of a good Vertigo series that launched between Lucifer and Scalped. It was a fairly dire time for Vertigo. I liked a lot of what Chaykin did with American Century. It's really really Chaykin. But I'm a nut for the time period so it worked for me. Would have worked better if he'd been doing the art. I think Azarello had the germ of something decent in Loveless. It got bogged down in places and it clearly didn't last long enough to come to fruition. But at least it tried to be an interesting western.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Jan 29, 2020 12:08:07 GMT -5
Actually I'm having trouble thinking of a good Vertigo series that launched between Lucifer and Scalped. It was a fairly dire time for Vertigo. I liked a lot of what Chaykin did with American Century. It's really really Chaykin. But I'm a nut for the time period so it worked for me. Would have worked better if he'd been doing the art. I think Azarello had the germ of something decent in Loveless. It got bogged down in places and it clearly didn't last long enough to come to fruition. But at least it tried to be an interesting western. I agree on American Century. Loved that series, especially the trip through the less idealized reality of the post-war years. It would have been better with Chaykin drawing, though I thought theart on the series was quite good and fit the narrative. A lot of it, though, is David Tischman, not just Chaykin.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 13:47:23 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Jan 29, 2020 14:09:44 GMT -5
He basically says that it means "enjoy this story for what it is without overthinking continuity either way." That's basically what I understood it as. Moore isn't knocking down his own story before it begins. He's defending its existence despite being "non-canonical," as if being canonical was an important goal in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on Jan 29, 2020 17:41:40 GMT -5
Actually I'm having trouble thinking of a good Vertigo series that launched between Lucifer and Scalped. It was a fairly dire time for Vertigo. I liked a lot of what Chaykin did with American Century. It's really really Chaykin. But I'm a nut for the time period so it worked for me. Would have worked better if he'd been doing the art. I liked Bite Club.
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on Jan 29, 2020 18:09:20 GMT -5
Started reading Y the Last Man and only made it through issue #10. Bored the crap out of me.
Have read both Sandman and Fables all the way through. Enjoyed them both immensely, but one of them is an incredible, once in a lifetime piece of storytelling that transcends the medium, and the other is Fables. There is no rational argument that can be made to insist Fables is the superior book.
Lastly, I found out today that I DON'T own a copy of Iron Man #39, as Iron Man Masterworks volume 7 ends at issue #38 and the next floppie I have is #40. Looks like I'm back on the hunt for a book after not having one since last year's search for Daredevil #65. I'm hating the oversight on my part, but I'm loving feeling reinvigorated by the mistake.
There. I said it.
|
|
|
Post by Duragizer on Jan 29, 2020 18:55:17 GMT -5
He basically says that it means "enjoy this story for what it is without overthinking continuity either way." That's basically what I understood it as. Moore isn't knocking down his own story before it begins. He's defending its existence despite being "non-canonical," as if being canonical was an important goal in the first place. It's a sentiment I wish fanboys* across all fandoms would take to heart. *Including the ascended ones.
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Jan 29, 2020 18:59:29 GMT -5
The mini series “The Golden Age “ was a else world’s book but later on DC decided to make it canon. Yes, enjoy all these tales and don’t take it too seriously.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 29, 2020 19:04:25 GMT -5
I wasn't aware that it was being misconstrued. If you read any interviews with Moore, particularly from the time period, it's pretty clear he's saying "enjoy comics for being comics and don't get hung up on continuity."
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 19:10:50 GMT -5
I think it was being misconstrued on a forum I was on (a comic-related one that I was a member of before this one).
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Jan 29, 2020 19:52:40 GMT -5
The mini series “The Golden Age “ was a else world’s book but later on DC decided to make it canon. Yes, enjoy all these tales and don’t take it too seriously. Well, James Robinson made Ted Knight's breakdown canon, in Starman; but, I wasn't aware anything else had been made official. Has something changed in recent years? I still don't think it was originally intended to be an Elseworld, as it didn't conflict heavily with any old story and provided a decent bridge to teh Silver Age, with a good reason for the JSA to disappear, as well as set up a reason for HUAC to go after them. It gives Manhunter a reason to give up on people and go to Africa for peace and end up bridging to the Goodwin/Simonson series. It just seemed like it got shoehorned into being an Elseworlds by the time they were going to press, probably because of Atom, Robotman and (probably to a much lesser extent) Mr America.
|
|