|
|
Post by BigPapaJoe on Jul 23, 2016 21:36:33 GMT -5
This was posted yesterday elsewhere so perhaps you've already here. But there is some controversy ever since a clip from the new Killing Joke animated film dropped of Barbara and Bruce almost going full throttle if you catch my drift. I've posted a link to the very short clip below. It is out of context, so unless you've seen the film already it's hard to quantify it all exactly. Still, a lot of people are flipping out because this seems really out of character for people's traditional view of these characters, especially Batman. This isn't the first time that Bruce Timm has tried to really push the envelope on this pairing if you remember the implications in a couple episodes of the Batman Animated Series and Batman Beyond I think. Now that this film is rated R, Timm isn't holding back with his artistic license. Personally I'm not sure how I feel about this. Bruce Timm can do whatever he wants with his Batman just like Zack Snyder can with his. It's just that if I feel it starts interfering with the spirit of the character, then that is when I start maybe getting apprehensive. This still isn't as bad as Batman killing people though. I think I'll still see this film however. I still haven't read the comic, which I want to do first. www.comicbookresources.com/article/batman-the-killing-joke-film-catches-bruce-barbara-in-a-bat-romance-2016 |
|
|
|
Post by dupersuper on Jul 26, 2016 20:49:54 GMT -5
Eeewwwww
|
|
|
|
Post by hondobrode on Jul 27, 2016 18:57:52 GMT -5
Yeah, I was shocked when I read this, and it's too creepy.
Really surprised DC let him do this, even with his big name.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 20:08:02 GMT -5
I'm speechless beyond disbelief of that Bruce Timm is expressing his artistic notion and even more shocked that DC let him to do this unbelievable clip that I just saw. It's just not right at all ...
|
|
|
|
Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 28, 2016 2:33:41 GMT -5
The Bruce/Barbara relationship was the one weak link when it comes to Batman's "story arc" in the DCAU. I just never understood it. I could buy that she'd fall for him, but keep it internalized, but I don't think Bruce would ever allow himself to get into an actual physical relationship with someone so impressionable and close to him...and so young. I'm a big Bruce Timm fan, but they really blew it with the adaptation. I'm not even a big fan of The Killing Joke as a story. Technically, Moore is as brilliant as he usually is, and Bolland's art is gorgeous, but the story itself has caused a lot more harm than good.
|
|
|
|
Post by chadwilliam on Jul 28, 2016 10:43:00 GMT -5
I believe the creepy Batman/Batgirl relationship was introduced in Batman Beyond. I can't recall if it were Timm or not, but one of the guys involved said that part of the interest of doing Batman in the future was doing all the things you're not supposed to do with the character. Whether that means simply getting rid of the cape or replacing Bruce Wayne with a kid it seemed that a lot of random ideas were thrown at the wall - I'm just surprised that this one has stuck around. Not sure why doing things you're not supposed to do with Batman is a good idea though but it might explain why I never liked that show. |
|
|
|
Post by dupersuper on Jul 28, 2016 13:00:09 GMT -5
Technically, Moore is as brilliant as he usually is, and Bolland's art is gorgeous, but the story itself has caused a lot more harm than good. Really? It inadvertently gave us Oracle, and Oracle was awesome. |
|
|
|
Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 28, 2016 20:05:24 GMT -5
Technically, Moore is as brilliant as he usually is, and Bolland's art is gorgeous, but the story itself has caused a lot more harm than good. Really? It inadvertently gave us Oracle, and Oracle was awesome. It gave us Oracle, but it also gave us an overly grim Batman who was obviously unhinged given that ending. I've never accepted for a moment that Batman has to be "crazy" to do what he does. For me, it's a silly real-world interjection that's not needed to explain Batman's motivations given the reality he lives in. Alan Moore himself regrets the story and doesn't like it anymore. He says it was a nasty story that used Batman in a way in which he was never intended. I agree. I don't made a darker, gritter take on Batman, but the psychology of that story was a bit too warped for my tastes. DKR's pushes Batman about as far as I'm willing to accept. |
|
|
|
Post by chadwilliam on Jul 29, 2016 11:39:08 GMT -5
Really? It inadvertently gave us Oracle, and Oracle was awesome. It gave us Oracle, but it also gave us an overly grim Batman who was obviously unhinged given that ending. I've never accepted for a moment that Batman has to be "crazy" to do what he does. For me, it's a silly real-world interjection that's not needed to explain Batman's motivations given the reality he lives in. Alan Moore himself regrets the story and doesn't like it anymore. He says it was a nasty story that used Batman in a way in which he was never intended. I agree. I don't made a darker, gritter take on Batman, but the psychology of that story was a bit too warped for my tastes. DKR's pushes Batman about as far as I'm willing to accept.
I dislike The Killing Joke for what it did to The Joker. Since when does the embodiment of pure evil need to be reshaped into a figure of tragedy? Deep down inside the Joker's just a victim of circumstances? - a guy who had the misfortune to fall into a vat of insanity? The Joker is supposed to be a criminal mastermind fully aware of the havoc he wrecks upon Gotham to feed his ego, not a whiney philosopher crying out for help. The Killing Joke is when the Joker became boring. In his first appearance, he almost apologizes for shooting one of his victims with a gun since such a means of killing is beneath him. Prior to this tale he was strapping his enemies to candles atop a giant birthday cake, carving his face into mountains, stealing weaponry that would let him reshape reality - here he simply shoots Barbara Gordon in the spine. Later in the year he'd be clubbing Jason Todd with a crowbar, by the close of the century he'd be shooting Sarah Gordon in the head, in what is considered one of his best showings in recent years, he'd spend an entire issue hitting people with his car - this stuff would be beneath the real Joker.
This is also the story where we learn that the Joker's main purpose in life is to get Batman (though admittedly it's more a focus on Gordon in this story) to change his views on the world. He exists not as a character in his own right with his own interests and desires, but solely as a cog in Batman's worldview. I've actually read stories where the Joker's motivation is to get Batman to kill him so he'll break his oath against killing (strangely, it was an issue of Action Comics in the 90's where I first came across this - and it was Superman he wanted to break). If the Joker thinks his own existence is so meaningless and dull to continue then why shouldn't the reader?
This has a negative impact on Batman as well. If the Joker is some guy robbing banks, threatening millionaires, and that sort of thing, then Batman is an outsider arriving on the scene to save the day. If however, the Joker is slaughtering people to get Batman's attention then all that bloodshed is the result of a personal feud between two men. "Why did all these people have to die, Batman?" "Because the Joker's greed knows no boundaries" is preferable to "Because he knew if he went on a killing spree he'd get my attention".
|
|
|
|
Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 29, 2016 11:53:30 GMT -5
I agree. It is interesting how all the psychological interplay between the Joker and Batman has had the effect of making the Joker, at least potentially, less of a well-rounded character. Nowadays DC seems to want to make the Joker some kind of supernatural being, perhaps even some sort of literal trickster deity. I don't like this at all. I'm on Paul Dini's side in that the Joker knows full well what he's doing. He may or may not being clinically insane, but he's certainly a sociopath. BTAS got his character perfectly. Mask of the Phantasm is still the best Batman movie to date and the best interpretation of the Joker in my book.
|
|
|
|
Post by dupersuper on Jul 29, 2016 19:45:57 GMT -5
Really? It inadvertently gave us Oracle, and Oracle was awesome. It gave us Oracle, but it also gave us an overly grim Batman who was obviously unhinged Dark Knight Returns beat them to that by 2 or 3 years... |
|
|
|
Post by chadwilliam on Aug 3, 2016 22:22:12 GMT -5
Can't believe I didn't remember this sooner, but it has been about 25 years since I first saw these...
|
|
