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Post by tolworthy on Nov 8, 2017 9:09:57 GMT -5
If extreme analysis is not your thing, look away now! Hi guys. Long time visitors (is there any other kind?) may recall that I once mused about a thread where I do nothing but analyse the cover of Fantastic Four Issue 1 for several weeks. You thought I was joking. What began as a thread grew so long that it turned into a book. The first 180 pages or so analyse the whole issue, page by page, then there are a hundred pages or so of appendices etc. I know what you're thinking, "how did he keep it so short?" Well I'll tell you. I only focused on one question: who did what? (Maybe a second volume would be two hundred pages of art criticism. The book contains a lot of pictures!) Fantastic Four 1 contains a lot of clues that something weird was going on: dialog that contradicts the art, pictures that look heavily edited in very specific ways, etc. I examined those to see what the comic itself said about its creation. The conclusion was stark. I finally had to change the title, from "Fantastic Four 1" to "who did what", to "The Case Against Stan Lee". Please note that this is only about the question of who created the original comics. If your love of comics comes from nostalgia then this is not he book for you. Stan Lee is still a peerless cultural icon, fun writer, and the name will forever be the source of endless warm childhood memories. But this book is just for people who love nerdy details. zak-site.com/Case_Against_Stan_Lee.pdf(web version for slower connections: zak-site.com/CaseAgainstStanLee.html)
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Post by MDG on Nov 8, 2017 9:20:25 GMT -5
I'll definitely try to read this this weekend. (In the meantime, keep an eye out for Stan's secret league of assassins!)
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,140
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Post by Confessor on Nov 8, 2017 9:28:38 GMT -5
Great to see to back in the forum tolworthy! It's especially nice that you've resurfaced with one of your signature, totally over the top, slightly bonkers (in the best possible way), but oh-so-interesting Fantastic Four theories. I'm looking forward to reading this.
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 8, 2017 10:28:10 GMT -5
slightly bonkers (in the best possible way), but oh-so-interesting Fantastic Four theories You ain't seen nothing yet! In appendix 8 I attempt to recreate the original comic, before edits. And work out Susan's age ( both ages). And find the original real life Reed Richards (yes, he did exist!). I hope people don't think I'm too serious in attacking Stan Lee as Doctor Doom's slightly more evil twin. The whole beauty of comics is that they don't require quite the same level of proof as, say, regular history. Don't get me wrong, I do my best, but, well.. some people get their fun from the sheer absurdity of superpowers. I get my fun from trying to track down the original model for June Robbins. (that's not in the book BTW, just stumbled on that yesterday)
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,811
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Post by shaxper on Nov 8, 2017 10:40:05 GMT -5
Great to have you back. You've been missed! While I often disagree with your analysies (for example, Captain Victory), I always find your arguments fascinating and thoroughly enjoyable. I cannot wait to disagree with you on this one 😁
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 8, 2017 11:44:14 GMT -5
I'm up to page 77 and it is interesting reading, though I find some conclusions to not be successfully argued. I had one or two that get further argued later on; so, I want to read the whole thing before drawing firm conclusions and counterpoints, if such emerge.
So far, I am highly engaged in it and it shows that a lot of work and thought went into it. Based on footnotes, I'm looking forward to getting to the appendices.
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Post by MDG on Nov 8, 2017 11:48:44 GMT -5
slightly bonkers (in the best possible way), but oh-so-interesting Fantastic Four theories ....The whole beauty of comics is that they don't require quite the same level of proof as, say, regular history.... Did you ever explore the movie Angry Red Planet (1959) as a model? Four astronauts (three men and a woman) blast off on an ill-fated space trip. Fun fact: The lead, Gerald Mohr, was the voice of Reed in the 1967 FF cartoons.
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Post by MWGallaher on Nov 8, 2017 11:59:19 GMT -5
I'm looking forward to reading this in greater depth, as it's a topic I've been fascinated with for a long time. Based on my first skim, I think I've got some speculations that differ from yours and some that augment yours. For example, it seems likely (even obvious) to me that the "Valley of Diamonds" was originally a massive collection of radioactive material that the Mole Man's monsters had gathered from the facilities that they had been looting from beneath the earth. That's why the characters were in protective suits: in the original version, they had to wear those to survive being so close to that pile of uranium.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 12:14:02 GMT -5
The PDF link that you've provided is a fascinating link and I just scanned the first 10-15 pages and found it to be quite revealing and thanks for sharing it tolworthy.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 12:22:47 GMT -5
Dear Everyone - You can download this file and put it on your PC for further reading.
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 8, 2017 12:36:53 GMT -5
Thanks, I appreciate that. That's my main reason for posting it here. There are bound to be weak points, and I'm hoping you guys can find them. Previously I had some of my fellow Kirby cultists proof read it, hoping they would find any weak points, but their main complaint was that it wasn't savage enough. 😁 Though they were very good for historical details. I hope that if I get enough specific feedback then I can make a much better version.
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 8, 2017 12:39:21 GMT -5
I found it to be quite revealing That could be taken several different ways 😁
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Post by tolworthy on Nov 8, 2017 15:08:39 GMT -5
I'm looking forward to reading this in greater depth, as it's a topic I've been fascinated with for a long time. Based on my first skim, I think I've got some speculations that differ from yours and some that augment yours. For example, it seems likely (even obvious) to me that the "Valley of Diamonds" was originally a massive collection of radioactive material that the Mole Man's monsters had gathered from the facilities that they had been looting from beneath the earth. That's why the characters were in protective suits: in the original version, they had to wear those to survive being so close to that pile of uranium. Why didn't I think of that? Brilliant insight! That would explain the attacks, AND the radiation suits, AND the final explosion. I just Googled the shape of naturally occurring uranium ore, and the picture is certainly possible. ESDIT: And the inking on the "diamonds" is pretty crude (doesn't pass the usual "better than I could draw" test). Hmmm...
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Post by rberman on Nov 8, 2017 18:13:38 GMT -5
That was a fun read!
1) The progression from Challengers to FF to Doom Patrol to X-Men has always been very clear to me, doubtless reflecting behind-the-scenes cameraderie; Marvel and DC staffers lived together and moonlighted under pen names on the "other side" for extra revenue, so cross-pollination was to be expected. With so many different comics available each month at certain points, and a young readership expected to move on to other things, it's no wonder that they used each other's material shamelessly and frequently. As you said at one point, the only purpose of comic books was to put something, anything sellable on the pages in order to generate advertising revenue. It was supposed to be disposable.
2) The no-powers, "professor and two kids with no powers" origin seems very plausible, combined with a Challengers retread. Then at some point somebody (Stan?) wanted an alliterative title "Fantastic Four" for a hero squad. The trio got powers, Sue got older, and Jack added one of his rock monsters to make the requisite four, modeled after the four elements earth, wind, fire, and water. This was a tentative "testing of the waters" hybridizing the monster stories for which Marvel was then known with a new attempt at super-heroes.
3) The Mole Man story being originally about underground nuclear testing also seems very plausible if you take out Stan's dialogue and just look at Jack's pictures, even with the retconning of Ben and super-powers into the story. It certainly makes sense of the piles of glowing rocks, the sudden radiation suits, the collapsing buildings, the final explosion, etc.
4) So... obviously the overall tone of the piece is very anti-Stan, and I have no grounds to disagree. But I am aware that DC heroes were all basically the same person with different costumes and power sets, as is obvious when they interact in JLA etc. Whereas Marvel characters tended not only to use youth lingo but also to have more differentiation in their dialogue from character to character. Does Stan deserve any credit for that, as the guy writing the words, even if those words worked against Kirby's intended plots? Or was that somehow Jack also?
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Post by MWGallaher on Nov 8, 2017 20:40:16 GMT -5
I'm looking forward to reading this in greater depth, as it's a topic I've been fascinated with for a long time. Based on my first skim, I think I've got some speculations that differ from yours and some that augment yours. For example, it seems likely (even obvious) to me that the "Valley of Diamonds" was originally a massive collection of radioactive material that the Mole Man's monsters had gathered from the facilities that they had been looting from beneath the earth. That's why the characters were in protective suits: in the original version, they had to wear those to survive being so close to that pile of uranium. Why didn't I think of that? Brilliant insight! That would explain the attacks, AND the radiation suits, AND the final explosion. I just Googled the shape of naturally occurring uranium ore, and the picture is certainly possible. ESDIT: And the inking on the "diamonds" is pretty crude (doesn't pass the usual "better than I could draw" test). Hmmm... The crudity of the diamonds is what first caught my attention. At a glance I knew Kirby didn't draw that. Assuming it was changed, then, what was it changed from? Radioactive stuff, of course...and then, the original plot starts to show: monsters causing nuclear facilities to collapse underground, they loot the fuel and transport it through underground tunnels to Monster Isle where it mutates more monsters from Mole Man's army. Scientist and his young assistants track the radioactive trail to the island, meet the Mole Man who tells them how he came to be and what his plans are, which the heroes foil, leading to the explosive destruction of the island. I don't think that Kirby intended the characters in the Mole Man story to be Reed, Sue and Johnny. I think that this was a typical short monster story with generic, throwaway lead characters--"I Fought...the Mole Man!" or something like that--which was chopped up, edited, supplemented, rewritten, and repurposed, and tacked on to the FF origin story. I assume, as others have speculated, that the origin was intended to appear in one of the ongoing monster anthologies like Amazing Adventures, but was instead promoted to its own comic, requiring the hasty creation of something to fill out the rest of the pages with "Fantastic Four" content.
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