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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 26, 2014 12:44:32 GMT -5
I've returned to my Silver Age reading (chronologically no less) and I'm almost done with Stan and Jack original Hulk run. It's fascinating how much change takes place to the Hulk's persona in those scant five issues. One thing I've been noticing, that I never gave much thought to in the past, is how Kirby drew the Hulk when he was "flying." The trajectory of the Hulk's leaps were all wrong from leaping and it got me wondering if Kirby actually meant for the Hulk to fly?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 26, 2014 13:00:31 GMT -5
I've returned to my Silver Age reading (chronologically no less) and I'm almost done with Stan and Jack original Hulk run. It's fascinating how much change takes place to the Hulk's persona in those scant five issues. One thing I've been noticing, that I never gave much thought to in the past, is how Kirby drew the Hulk when he was "flying." The trajectory of the Hulk's leaps were all wrong from leaping and it got me wondering if Kirby actually meant for the Hulk to fly? I mentioned that in my review of Hulk #3. "It's not at all clear whether the Hulk is actually flying in this one and later it gets forgotten, or if the folks are mistaking his jumping for flying. It's a Superman look to the fly/jump." It looks to me like Kirby had him flying. Stan may not have seen it that way. Or they may have just changed their minds later. Honestly it's pretty clear that nobody really had any idea what to do with the character early on. |
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Post by tolworthy on Sept 26, 2014 14:28:16 GMT -5
At least one time he changes direction mid flight I think it's a later issue, with the Leader's giant android? And Hulky is near a bridge? The text explains that he can change direction by tensing his muscles.
In cases like this I appeal to the explanation in FF 249, for how Gladiator can lift a building without it crumbling: all ludicrous strength (i.e. beyond mere super strength) has to be partly or wholly telekenesis. It also explains how Hulky can jump wothout simply creating a hole and staying where he is (the speed he'd need to move those legs at, is like firing a gun into the soil). And how he can carry Rick Jones without Rick being splattered by inertia.
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Post by Cei-U! on Sept 26, 2014 14:38:02 GMT -5
Hulky-Boy changes direction mid-leap in his first scene in Avengers #1 when he spies Loki's illusory dynamite atop a railroad bridge (which may be the scene tolworthy is thinking of).
Cei-U!
I summon the precedent!
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 26, 2014 15:23:13 GMT -5
I'm almost convinced that Kirby envisioned the Hulk as a flyer. IF that was the case, I think Stan got it right. There is really nothing in the pseudo-science makeup of the Hulk that could justify him having the ability to fly, even using the internal logic of superheroics. With the Human Torch, Stan and Jack did those pages dedicated to explaining how he can fly (being "lighter than air") and all the nuances of his other abilities that was obviously using some king of logic. That said, there is something amusing about the Hulk flying around the desert. He's my favorite Marvel character, but I grew up with the Hulk as a leaper.
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Post by MWGallaher on Sept 26, 2014 16:19:15 GMT -5
There is no question in my mind about what happened here.
Jack Kirby wrote and drew a story about the Hulk gaining the ability to fly.
Stan Lee decided that the Hulk shouldn't fly and "fixed it" in the text.
The first story in issue 3 has Rick Jones trick Hulk into entering a space ship. The military launches the space ship, thinking they've rid themselves of the Hulk.
On page 6, Hulk reverts to Banner, and passes through a radiation belt. Kirby special effects ensue, clearly indicating the rays were, according to Jack, having some significant effect on him.
On page 7, panel 3 looks suspiciously like it was inserted after Stan revised the story, mainly because half the panel is a text box describing an unlikely shock traveling from the space capsule to Rick Jones, who has taken over the control panel.
Here's what I think: Jack intended for the radiation belt to change Hulk, giving him the power of flight. On page 7, Rick, regretting his betrayal, was supposed to cause the space ship to land. Stan, at the time of scripting, was trying to back away from Jack's flying angle, but had to come up with some other significance for the dramatic light show, so he had Jack draw the panel showing Rick getting zapped, to set up the idea that the radiation would give Rick control over the Hulk.
On page 8, the Hulk lands, and he's glowing with radiation. I'm sure Jack intended this to be a cue that Hulk had new powers, since that in no way suggests a cosmic link between him and Rick.
On page 11, Hulk flies, but Stan backpedals with a text box that explains it away as a leap. On the last page of the issue, Hulk flies away with Rick. Jack draws Hulk in a Superman pose, prone, with arms outstretched. He knew what he was drawing: a Hulk with the power of flight.
Then comes issue 4. Now we get the strong evidence of Jack and Stan's disagreement. Because while Stan was scripting issue 3, Kirby was going full steam ahead with his new, flying Hulk in issue 4. The first story has Hulk flying all over the place. The army has created a jet-powered copy of the Hulk so that they can practice shooting him down. Not a ballistic effigy, a jet-powered, flying dummy. On page 5, the Hulk takes flight, and Stan has to explain it away: "...a fantastic leap, powered by muscles so powerful, that he seems to be flying!"
Page 6, he's still clearly being drawn as a flying character, but Stan interjects "propelled by his prodigious leap..." Kirby then draws Hulk changing course, heading for a bus stalled on a railroad track. Stan: "as his leap begins to lose momentum..."
On page 8, soldiers are transporting Rick Jones to an Army prison in a jeep, but in their rear-view mirror, they are being followed by the Hulk, soaring along directly behind them. On page 9, Kirby draws the Hulk swooping over the jeep, grabbing Rick, and zooming up into the sky. Stan doesn't even try to explain this panel. Jack is clearly drawing a being that can now fly. No question. The Hulk flies one more time, on the last page of this story, page 14.
But there's another story in this issue, "The Gladiator from Outer Space." By this time, Jack has gotten the word: the Hulk doesn't fly, he leaps. Jack dutifully submits to Stan's dictates, and the visuals in this story are entirely different. When Hulk takes to the air, he's always shown leaping. When the Hulk is soaring through the sky, he's in that classic crouch. His motion lines are arcs, he doesn't change direction. Jack knows how to draw a character leaping, and he knows how to draw a character flying.
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Post by Rob Allen on Sept 26, 2014 17:23:16 GMT -5
Jack still pushed the boundaries, as noted by Fred Hembeck in his blog a few years ago:
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 27, 2014 2:51:27 GMT -5
mwgallaher sums it up nicely. I just read issue #4 yesterday and it does seem that Kirby got the memo by the Mongu story. While there is no clear instance of the Hulk flying/leaping as in the previous story, he does clearly leap up to the helicopter to tie the commies on the tow cable, as appose to flying up.
The scene Rob Allen posted is one that I got a laugh out of the first time I read it. It's almost as if Kirby was messing with Stan here; the Hulk was clearly in a jumping position but traversing distances that would be impossible for a guy who can leap a "mere" 3 miles.
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