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Post by berkley on Jan 3, 2021 1:33:42 GMT -5
(Not sure if this should go here or in the Modern Comics page, because I want to talk about both the original series and the various later versions, including the upcoming Gillen/Ribic one. But I'll put it here, and when I get to the new one perhaps I'll start a separate thread there.)
So anyway, the Eternals Problem, or the problem of the Eternals: what is it? Why does every single attempt to revive or reinvent these characters, this concept, end in artistic and popular failure? Why, though attempted many times over many years by different creators of widely varying levels of skill and talent - and some of the very highest - do they not only fail consistently, but even fail in the same ways over and over again?
To me, the answer is simple: they all try to do the same thing, and that thing is a mistake - they try to fit the Eternals into the Marvel Universe. To do this, since they approach the problem from the Marvel Universe rather than from the Eternals perspective, they have to make the Eternals not just something different, but something lesser than what they are in the original series. And by "lesser", I mean something quite specific, which I'll try to describe in detail as my tale of woe unfolds.
But to explain why the concept doesn't work in the MU, it's necessary to explain briefly what I think the whole thing is about in the first place - though it's both simple and deep, so any sort of concise précis really isn't going to do it justice. And to be fair, I'll also try to explain how it might be made to work in the MU - not perfectly, not as well as it would, as it did, on its own, but better than it has done in the MU up to now - if a creative team were motivated and were given the creative freedom to do so.
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Post by brutalis on Jan 3, 2021 2:26:09 GMT -5
Oh goodie! Eternals is one of my favorite Kirby Koncepts to read over and over. For whatever reason Eternals captures my liking of mythology and history with a strong dose of cosmic/fantastic in a way that I enjoy more than the Fourth World. Where Orion and the gang are the dark, bleak Nordic tragic destruction toward the end of worlds, I find Eternals reflects more of the Greek and Roman pathos filled with grandeur and bright promise of humanity's potential.
Where Orion is grim and violent and very reactionary, Ikaris is stern, solemn and protective with optimism and hope. There is a depth of emotions to Kro the "dark evil" Deviant in love with his opposite in Thena which the villainy of Darkseid lacks. Where Lightray comes across as almost naive and rashly quick to rushing in, it is Makkari who is mature, intelligent and learned only fools rush in blindly. Scott Free yearns to be truly free from his struggle of birthright yearning to be "normal" like the rest of us, Sersi embraces all her gifts, enjoying life and savoring humanity and what we provide.
And Celestial judgement? The Eternals hope to bring ALL of humanity united together in showing the Universe why we are here and why we will not go softly and quietly quivering in fear into the darkness without a fight showing our full strength, courage, heart, soul and potential!
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2021 14:52:05 GMT -5
Well, I did a whole thread about my thoughts on the Eternals; but, where everyone else fails is, as you say, trying to shoehorn it into the Marvel Universe and make them superheroes and supervillains, rather than mythological or even sci-fi figures. They also fail because so few involved really understand mythical archetypes. Kirby understood myth probably better than anyone this side of Joseph Campbell or Edith Hamilton. Kirby understood the archetypes and the grand scope of the stories, the metaphors. Kirby wrote modern stories with an Old World feel. He did opera, while everyone else was trying to do rock and roll (and mostly managing to produce pop music). Even Gaiman, who was steeped in myth, in Sandman, missed the point. Some of it, I think, is a generational thing. Kirby had lived through epic things; those that followed read about them. Kirby was the child of immigrants; those that followed were, at best, grandchildren of immigrants. They were too far removed from the stories.
I also think Kirby was able to capture the spirit of the time in which he wrote, while others are busy copying what had been, rather than write about their own now. Eternals is very much a product of the post Age of Aquarius New Age mumbo-jumbo and looking for things beyond the here and now, whether it was von Daniken space gods, cosmic forces, Native American spirituality, or unexplained (or better, refusing to believe the logical explanations) phenomena.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 3, 2021 15:14:35 GMT -5
Ever think that the Celestials were Kirby's version of Lovecraft's Elder Gods. For Kirby the would be all powerful super tech beings.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 3, 2021 15:34:16 GMT -5
Man, I had the entire series years ago and nothing jumped out at me as being special.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 3, 2021 15:55:15 GMT -5
Man, I had the entire series years ago and nothing jumped out at me as being special. Might be time to revisit it.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 3, 2021 15:57:35 GMT -5
Yeah, the Celestials were cool. I kind of remember the series not going anywhere and finishing like the New Gods did.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 3, 2021 16:04:08 GMT -5
Yeah, the Celestials were cool. I kind of remember the series not going anywhere and finishing like the New Gods did. Marvel insisting he abandon his concept to shoe horn it into the MU.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2021 16:04:17 GMT -5
Ever think that the Celestials were Kirby's version of Lovecraft's Elder Gods. For Kirby the would be all powerful super tech beings. There was also a strong Hebrew element to it, which is understandable.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 3, 2021 16:07:54 GMT -5
Yeah, the Celestials were cool. I kind of remember the series not going anywhere and finishing like the New Gods did. Marvel insisting he abandon his concept to shoe horn it into the MU. Man, If only Kirby had left Marvel in the early 70's and self published. He might have really made himself a rival to the big 2 like Image did.
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Post by brutalis on Jan 3, 2021 16:15:21 GMT -5
Man, I had the entire series years ago and nothing jumped out at me as being special. Might be time to revisit it. I will be. Have the collected Kirby trade of Eternals which came out in 2020. Then late January will ship collected trades of the Roy Thomas Thor/Eternals/Celestials saga along with the trade collecting the 1st ever Eternals 12 issue mini series. I haven't read these since they were new and sold years later without re-reading so will be like brand new to my tired aging mind. Thanks to the MCU upcoming movie there is plenty of early Eternals to read now.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 3, 2021 16:24:51 GMT -5
Might be time to revisit it. I will be. Have the collected Kirby trade of Eternals which came out in 2020. Then late January will ship collected trades of the Roy Thomas Thor/Eternals/Celestials saga along with the trade collecting the 1st ever Eternals 12 issue mini series. I haven't read these since they were new and sold years later without re-reading so will be like brand new to my tired aging mind. Thanks to the MCU upcoming movie there is plenty of early Eternals to read now. I have that Thor/ Eternals Celestial story but the Eternals took a back seat in that saga.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 3, 2021 18:39:55 GMT -5
Marvel insisting he abandon his concept to shoe horn it into the MU. Man, If only Kirby had left Marvel in the early 70's and self published. He might have really made himself a rival to the big 2 like Image did. He had been a publisher and lost his shirt when the 50s witch hunts took hold. That led to him having to eat crow and be treated like crap, at DC, on Green Arrow. Jack had a family to feed and wasn't ready to take that much of a leap of faith. I also don't think he could have competed, without serious financial backing, before the Direct Market was well established. By that point, Jack had found stability and better remuneration in animation.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 3, 2021 18:42:56 GMT -5
Man, If only Kirby had left Marvel in the early 70's and self published. He might have really made himself a rival to the big 2 like Image did. He had been a publisher and lost his shirt when the 50s witch hunts took hold. That led to him having to eat crow and be treated like crap, at DC, on Green Arrow. Jack had a family to feed and wasn't ready to take that much of a leap of faith. I also don't think he could have competed, without serious financial backing, before the Direct Market was well established. By that point, Jack had found stability and better remuneration in animation. Makes sense. I guess I'm thinking in an alternate reality , what if he wasn't scared to start his own comic company in 1972 and created New Gods , etc for an independent line. He would have made a mint.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2021 18:43:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure why, but the Eternals as a concept have always bored me. (that's not unique among the "grand Kirby concepts" - as I'm also not a fan of the New Gods). but if they broke out some characters, and focused just on them, I might find it more interesting. I mean, I love Big Barda via the Mr. Miracle series from the 80's. yes, Sersi was a member of the Avengers and I liked her on the team, even if I never understood what her powers were. maybe simply too "cosmic" for me? I did note when ordering this week's comics, that many of the covers for this Wednesday's launch are quite lovely - but I still didn't order the issue
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