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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 4, 2023 5:00:49 GMT -5
I keep hearing that after the Lee/ Kirby , John Byrne had the best Fantastic Four run on the long lasting title. Some say it's Jonathan Hickman. Well I am of the opinion that the second most creative and fun era was from 103-150. Lets look at what was created and introduced: Issue 102 had the first non Kirby drawn comic. It involved Namor and Magneto against the FF. This book had great John Romita art. He stayed on until 106.  107 had the first time the Thing was granted the ability to change into his human form and 112 had one of the classic Hulk /Thing fights of all Time. Lets not forget that Big John Buscema started drawing the book with 107.  113 fully introduced the great character of the Overmind and 116 was a double sized Team up of the villainous Dr. Doom to take him down. 116 had Archie Goodwin fully take over the writing from Stan.  120 introduced the Air walker in a great 3 part Galactus story and 129 introduced Thundra into the Marvel Universe.  131 had the final breakup between the Torch and Crystal in a battle with Quicksilver. 141 had Reed shut down Franklin's powers which led to Sue filing for divorce.  132 had Medusa become the first replacement FF member  142 had the first appearance of Darkoth and 147 had Reed and the other members attack Namor for abducting Sue. It's revealed that she willingly chose to join the Submariner and wanted to stay with him.  150 is a 2 parted started in Avengers # 127 of the wedding between Crystal and Quicksilver  I submit to you that it was a great creative time where Lee picked up the gauntlet and created , without help from Kirby, great characters like Airwalker and the Overmind and kept the quality of the title going. Yay or nay ? Change my mind. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 4, 2023 5:46:50 GMT -5
I started reading the FF during that period, so I can hardly disagree on how much fun it was. That being said, many of the scripts were revisiting old concepts without adding a lot to them. Since it was the first time I would meet Galactus or the Inhumans I didn't mind, but in hindsight I suppose a long-time reader would have felt a certain sense of déjà vu.
With Byrne, the illusion of change was stronger. I'm not sure it was for the best, because some quasi-changes needed to be undone and hurt the willing suspension of disbelief, and because getting to know character like Galactus better took away from their aloof majesty... but it sure kept me waiting for the next issue!
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Post by Cei-U! on Apr 4, 2023 6:12:01 GMT -5
A lot of that run had Gerry Conway writing and I didn't care for the whole "Reed shuts down Franklin's mind so Sue leaves him and the team" scenario so, no, I don't agree. I do love all that John Byscema-Joe Sinnott artwork, though, so I might place it in third.
Cei-U!
I summon the bronze medal!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2023 6:48:10 GMT -5
I agree with you, Icctrombone. I read a lot of these thanks to UK reprints, pocket books, etc. I believe there’s something very profound and epic in all of those tales, a perfect escape from the real world. The art is golden, and it’s all utterly engrossing. I feel there’s a real sense of menace in many of those stories, and I think they represent great sci-fi. (Oh, get lost, autocorrect, “sci-fi” is a word, you’re just useless) |
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 4, 2023 6:58:51 GMT -5
I started buying this book with #118, so this run is my jam. It certainly is under appreciated, and I agree Lee gave us some good stories after Kirby left. Second best? Hard to say. I don't know if that is Byrne either. And I found Hickman so overwritten and convoluted to become tedious.
I think Waid's run is underrated.
But this run is better than it's given credit for.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2023 9:00:52 GMT -5
I don't really see #103-150 as a very clearly defined period, the whole 70's post-Kirby kind of runs together for me, but it's a decade I definitely love.
I've always said the first 300 issues of FF are remarkably consistently good compared to most anything else. Not without weaknesses by any means, but I can't think of a lot of others series/runs that long where I can pretty much enjoy most of it.
I thought the issues where Medusa joined in particular were fun in the 70's, probably the only thing I thought was silly was the whole "Sue chose Namor" thing, that was pretty lame recycling IMO.
Byrne's run I read as a kid and was such a high point for me at the time, I have a more measured look at in retrospect. Sue's haircut alone was terrible, I didn't like the brutal treatment of Alicia by Annihilus, I didn't like the Thing abandoning Alicia so he could stay on Warworld (though She-Hulk WAS a lot of fun I have to say), and the Malice storyline was pretty out there and just bad to my taste. The way he handled a really tough topic though with Sue losing their second child was done very tastefully.
So growing up I would have easily given Byrne's run second place to the classic Lee/Kirby/Sinnott era, but now I can't really put it ahead of the 70's. So I will end up agreeing that #103-150 (and again, for me a number of years after that) ends up second. Honestly, I mostly only re-read 60's and 70's, and quite often at that.
One thing on Hickman...for a modern run, I think he had some great creativity but he's an "ideas" guy all the way, he really can't write character dialogue. I think he badly needed a scripter to make them sound like real characters.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,627 
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Post by Confessor on Apr 4, 2023 14:06:46 GMT -5
I've read precious little post Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four, but I'm sure as sh*t that Jonathan Hickman's run isn't one of the best. His run started off interesting, but it very quickly became apparent that he was just throwing ideas at the wall with no idea about how to resolve them or even any real intention to resolve them. His dialogue also kinda sucks.
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Post by Hoosier X on Apr 4, 2023 15:06:20 GMT -5
I agree whole-heartedly! I would extend the run to the 180s, maybe even #200.
My first issue was 165, and the FF was still very good then and for the next few years. I very quickly picked up numerous back issues (a lot of them at 2 for a quarter) and had all but a handful of the issues from #140 on, and it all sure seemed like the same great run to me.
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 4, 2023 15:54:19 GMT -5
I also like the run of artist that followed Kirby. First, Buscema, whose work always deserves superlatives. Followed by Buckler and Perez (with occasional fill in artists). And Sinnott always a constant plus on inks.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 4, 2023 15:54:41 GMT -5
I don’t remember anything great from 151- to about 165 when Perez came along.
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 4, 2023 16:12:23 GMT -5
I keep hearing that after the Lee/ Kirby , John Byrne had the best Fantastic Four run on the long lasting title. Some say it's Jonathan Hickman. Well I am of the opinion that the second most creative and fun era was from 103-150. Lets look at what was created and introduced: Issue 102 had the first non Kirby drawn comic. It involved Namor and Magneto against the FF. This book had great John Romita art. He stayed on until 106. 107 had the first time the Thing was granted the ability to change into his human form and 112 had one of the classic Hulk /Thing fights of all Time. Lets not forget that Big John Buscema started drawing the book with 107. 113 fully introduced the great character of the Overmind and 116 was a double sized Team up of the villainous Dr. Doom to take him down. 116 had Archie Goodwin fully take over the writing from Stan. 120 introduced the Air walker in a great 3 part Galactus story and 129 introduced Thundra into the Marvel Universe. 131 had the final breakup between the Torch and Crystal in a battle with Quicksilver. 141 had Reed shut down Franklin's powers which led to Sue filing for divorce. 132 had Medusa become the first replacement FF member 142 had the first appearance of Darkoth and 147 had Reed and the other members attack Namor for abducting Sue. It's revealed that she willingly chose to join the Submariner and wanted to stay with him. 150 is a 2 parted started in Avengers # 127 of the wedding between Crystal and Quicksilver I submit to you that it was a great creative time where Lee picked up the gauntlet and created , without help from Kirby, great characters like Airwalker and the Overmind and kept the quality of the title going. Yay or nay ? Change my mind. You'll get no argument from me, as I too consider the era in question a powerful continuation after the Lee/Kirby run. No other FF run comes close. Rarely will you find a title with nearly all of its first decade (and some change) intensifying the creative strengths of the generally accepted heyday.
Romita following Kirby was the wise choice; he was already setting the style for Marvel at the time and could--unlike so many of his fellow Marvel artists--draw everyone in the MU. His FF was just as dynamic with the "first family" of Marvel as seen with his unparalleled work on numerous titles of the time. Then comes Buscema--already the man who created the greatest of all Avengers visuals, he brought his ability to add such raw athleticism and drama to the F.F. without missing a beat from his predecessors. Add that to one compelling story after another, and F.F. #103-#150 is such a near-perfect comic book experience.
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Post by berkley on Apr 4, 2023 16:17:07 GMT -5
I also like the run of artist that followed Kirby. First, Buscema, whose work always deserves superlatives. Followed by Buckler and Perez (with occasional fill in artists). And Sinnott always a constant plus on inks. And those few issues Romita did too. I liked Buckler's Kirby-style art, which I thought was a nice touch for this particular series without being a slavish imitation - kind of a mix of Kirby and Buscema. Perez's art on his FF run I felt at the time was a little too toned down by Sinnott's inks but it's started to look better to me the last few years whenever I see online samples, so I look forward to re-reading those issues some day to see how I'll like them. |
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Post by berkley on Apr 4, 2023 16:28:45 GMT -5
In terms of hazy memories and nostalagia, this period right after Kirby, from around #102 to #120 or so (roughly when I stopped following the series for a few years) would definitely be my second favourite after the Kirby-Lee run. I haven't re-read them since the early 1970s so I can't say for sure how they'll strike me whenever I do. I'm still trying to fill in my FF issues up to around #200, so I don't have them all yet. I kissed the Conway run and came back I think with #162, from the Thomas-Buckler run. I stayed with the book past #200 but looking at the cover gallery I'm a bit hazy as to when exactly I gave it up for good. I think it might have been very early in the Byrne issues.
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