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Post by commond on Jun 12, 2023 17:16:24 GMT -5
Big bucks has nothing to do with quality, Full Stop, end of story. It is a useless argument when we are talking about the actual work. This reminds me of MCU die-hards who use the money its made as a marker of quality, when most of it is kiddie garbage. Stallone movies (collectively) have made a ton of money, but I do not know a single soul who would say most were of any artistic quality. This applies to Liefeld's chicken-scratch almost more than any other artist. There is a lot of hard work, effort, and talent that goes into making Stallone pictures, or any type of commercially driven film, which is why you often see the people involved nominated for industry awards. Those types of films create work for people and allow them to work in the industry and make a living. For what it's worth, Stalone did an impressive job of reinventing his career in the past twenty years when he could have easily faded into obscurity, especially at his age and with the type of films he's known for.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 17:28:11 GMT -5
When I was a kid, the Rambo movies were just action-oriented. As an adult, I was able to appreciate and ponder them, whether it be Rambo’s battle with Sheriff Teasle in the first film, or the POW issue in the second movie. I remember being quite moved when Rambo, at the end of the second film, said, “I love my country. All I want - and all these guys want - is for this country to love us as much as we love it.” (I may be paraphrasing slightly)
While some have called it corny, I did enjoy the speech Rocky gave at the end of Rocky IV.
What is art? It’s all in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I would say a case could be made about artistic quality in some of Stallone’s films. Not all, but some. And while the majority of viewers probably watched First Blood II for the bullets and bombs, I do feel the POW issue was covered in a rather touching and poignant way. If I was going to assemble some clips from the first two Rambo films, scenes between Colonel Trautman and Rambo would be on my list.
I hope I don’t sound pretentious. I do not intend do, nor do I feel I am. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to post anything silly. I’m not going to claim that Romancing the Stone or Jumanji are deep, thoughtful movies. Sometimes, a popcorn flick is enough. Sometimes entertainment is enough for me. Sometimes I don’t need anything deep.
However, a dozen or so scenes in the first two Rambo films definitely made me think (and I could see both sides in the first film as the sheriff clashed with Rambo). On that basis alone, artistic quality would have to be a phrase I’d use.
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Post by commond on Jun 12, 2023 17:45:18 GMT -5
If you look at a film like First Blood, which was a financial success, there are a multitude of reasons why the film succeeded. If you dissect and break it down, it's an effective piece of filmmaking. It's an intelligent enough film that you can find plenty of subtext in it, if you wish, and that's due to the script, direction, acting, cinematography and editing.
I don't know if Rob's work is on quite the same level, though at least he has the good sense to have other people script his work for him.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,597
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Post by Confessor on Jun 12, 2023 19:04:58 GMT -5
On the subject of Stallone, the original Rocky from 1976, a film he wrote, is a truly excellent film. Brilliant script, great performances from the central cast, superb directing, and an excellent musical score -- hence why it won 3 Oscars and a Golden Globe Award, I guess.
Rocky II is nearly as good, but after that, yeah, things start to get really silly and the quality of the films drops off dramatically. Truth be told though, I can even enjoy the really rubbish ones like Rocky IV and Rocky V. But I can also see that, objectively, it's really only the original Rocky that is a seriously good movie.
As for Leifeld, I really don't like his art and never have. I've always thought it looked eye-stabbingly ugly. But I think it's cool that there are still folks out there who do enjoy it, including our very own Icc. Mind you, I've always said that guy had weird taste: I mean, what kinda clown doesn't like green space-rabbits?!!
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 12, 2023 22:24:48 GMT -5
This could go in the one letter off thread as Bladder Blood. The character will change their name to Thunderclap! I think you treat that with Ultra-Penicillin.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 12, 2023 22:28:08 GMT -5
The character will change their name to Thunderclap! I think you treat that with Ultra-Penicillin. Which is kryptonite for Sif...
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 12, 2023 22:33:08 GMT -5
First Blood was great and somewhat easy to buy into (the original novel more so). Rambo turned him into a super-soldier and dumbed down the plot and upped the rah-rah, so we could win the Vietnam War, this time.
Personally, I think Rocky 1-3 make a nice little trilogy: Underdog gets a shot at the gold and gives hit his all, while also taking a shot at love. Underdog gets a second chance to win it all and finds the right motivation to finally succeed. Champion loses the hunger and plays it safe and falls to another hungry fighter. He then recaptures the hunger and takes the title back. Then it gets truly silly, though I concede that Rocky III is also where it turns into pro wrestling (literally and metaphorically).
When Stallone is motivated, he's a pretty good actor; when he is lazy, he's at least fun to watch. Usually. Even his really dumb movies are above a lot of action fare, especially if Steven Segal is involved. I sat through more than I care to remember, onboard ship (and you will watch anything, when you have been at see for a few weeks).
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 13, 2023 8:01:10 GMT -5
Because of the positive feedback, I'm considering doing a Liefeld review thread. I just have to decide which one series...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 8:23:11 GMT -5
As an adult, I came to appreciate First Blood because I did see both sides. I was leaning more towards Rambo: he simply wanted somewhere to eat, he’d served his country, and hadn’t broken any laws. At the same time, I did understand why Sheriff Teasle wanted to protect the status quo of his small, quiet town. As Trautman said in the film, Rambo did all that he could to make the war happen - whoever drew first blood. Yet I see people (not anyone here) dismissing it as fantasy action garbage - or whatever words they use. Really? I admit, I can’t think of any depth or subtext in Rambo III - and Rambo probably is action-oriented. But I can see the depth and subtext in the first two. Things stay with me, e.g. in the opening scene of the second film, when considering staying in prison, Rambo looks around him and says, “At least in here, I know where I stand.” On Icctrombone thinking about reviewing Liefeld for a thread, a predictable choice from me, but how about the issues of The New Mutants or X-Force?
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 13, 2023 8:45:13 GMT -5
When I was a kid, the Rambo movies were just action-oriented. As an adult, I was able to appreciate and ponder them, whether it be Rambo’s battle with Sheriff Teasle in the first film, or the POW issue in the second movie. I remember being quite moved when Rambo, at the end of the second film, said, “I love my country. All I want - and all these guys want - is for this country to love us as much as we love it.” (I may be paraphrasing slightly) First Blood was a good film, but the case with people not blessed with a broad range of talent, but are in love with excess, he bought into the historically ignorant, jingoistic view of the super-warrior American settling foreign affairs, which typified the worst instincts of the Ronald Reagan era. The Rambo sequels were utterly devoid of sense, which hurt the character study the original film had been. But Stallone being Stallone, he had to inject laughably childish political views into the sequels, all topped off by as much (and this is key) mindless, "bigger is better" violence as he could force into the films. That kind of excess (not referring to the Reagan era in a policy sense) reminds me of Liefeld's kind of "creativity". Quite infantile. When one thinks of the innumerable lives lost, manipulative actions from both the U.S. and the Soviet Union during the course of the Cold War, the Rocky IV speech seemed incredibly tone deaf (or ignorant) about the nature of governments (particularly the actor's own) and the people who run them. I would have expected that kind of "See? We can be friends and settle our differences if we try" speech at the end of a Super Friends episode, which means it was not going to come off as thought-provoking in a live action movie supposedly not aimed at children. Sure, but some are free to point out what deficiencies are ever-present in Liefeld's work past and present. Its not as though people just picked his name out of a barrel and started in on him, especially in my case, as I do not see merit in the work of his former Image partners, either.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 8:56:13 GMT -5
On your last sentence, I did not post that people couldn’t point out deficiencies in Liefeld’s work, I merely expressed a view of my own, one more specific to the Rambo films than Liefeld. I did not - for a nanosecond - assume people had picked his name out of a barrel.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 13, 2023 10:03:13 GMT -5
The First Blood novel is a more realistic story, because it doesn't have the Hollywood jazz and it came out on the heels of Vietnam and reflected a truer reality, then. Law enforcement in small towns and rural areas did harass "hippies" and long hairs. Vietnam vets were shunned, even within veterans organizations. It captures those elements quite well. It also gets more into Rambo's head.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 13, 2023 10:53:18 GMT -5
Because of the positive feedback, I'm considering doing a Liefeld review thread. I just have to decide which one series... MY FAVOURITE LIEFELD STUFF (Oops, sorry about the caps lock). *Ahem*). My favourite Liefeld material is the early one, when he seemed to be brimming with enthusiasm; he came across as a huge comics fan having landed his dream job. I quite enjoyed what he did with "What if Wolverine was an agent of SHIELD" (vol. 2, #7), for example, or his X-Men issue that was a spoof of DC's Invasion.
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Post by tartanphantom on Jun 13, 2023 13:09:38 GMT -5
These feet look good to me. Unlike many artists, his art is getting better with time. This book has sold out and is going to a second printing, so he's still commercially viable. Give credit where credit is due...
I don't really mind the feet or the extra abs, but the total lack of trigger discipline really grinds my gears.
It bugs me not only in comics, but also in TV and film.
It really bugs me in TV and film.
Holding a firearm nonchalantly with your booger hook on the bang switch is how accidents happen in real life. A lot. I've seen plenty of "experienced" or "qualified" shooters have a negligent discharge (some with injury) because of careless behavior like this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 13:14:43 GMT -5
At least the A-Team was realistic with firearms and shooting, right, tartanphantom?
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