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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 27, 2016 9:15:17 GMT -5
Looking at those beautiful Williamson pages, I wonder... If such great artists were available, why not try to get them to do more work? Even make them the regular artist?
I imagine it's because people like Al put a lot of time into each page, resulting in (a) an inability to meet a monthly schedule and (b) lower income for the artist. The latter reason is why John Buscema frequently only did layouts even though he'd have preferred to do fully inked art, and why Gil Kane started doing all those covers in the 1970s.
Point a could have been solved by having more than one regular artist. But that solution enhances the problem posed by point b.
It's unfortunate that so few artists can be both very, very good and very, very fast. I sure wish I were able to go straight to inks, as Boulet, Eddie Campbell or Sean Philips manage to do.
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Post by Confessor on Nov 27, 2016 13:32:19 GMT -5
Looking at those beautiful Williamson pages, I wonder... If such great artists were available, why not try to get them to do more work? Even make them the regular artist? I imagine it's because people like Al put a lot of time into each page, resulting in (a) an inability to meet a monthly schedule and (b) lower income for the artist. The latter reason is why John Buscema frequently only did layouts even though he'd have preferred to do fully inked art, and why Gil Kane started doing all those covers in the 1970s. Exactly right, Roquefort. Williamson was always George Lucas's #1 choice as artist for a Star Wars comic because of how amazing his work was, as well as how much of a fan Lucas was of the old EC comics. Apparently, Lucas first approached Williamson about doing a comic based on his new sci-fi film, as early as 1975, before Star Wars had even started shooting. But Williamson was slow. Even with Carlos Garzon assisting him, he took much too long over each issue to be the regular artist on Marvel's comic. Even on one-shots or mini-series, like SW #50 or the ROTJ mini-series, he started to fall behind and had to be helped out by other artists. Of course, he was also churning out the SW newspaper strip during that period too, but regardless, being the regular artist on the series was just beyond him at that point in his life.
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Post by Confessor on Nov 27, 2016 13:41:20 GMT -5
I have to agree that the Kiro/Dani relationship was poorly set up but I don't agree it is hard to care about her grief. While we might not have seen much of them together we do know Dani and between losing someone she was growing close to and her torture at the hands of the Nagai it is heartbreaking to see the lively, adventurerous woman so ground down. What makes it sadder though is this is, irc, the last time we see Rik Duel and Chindo at all. They are visible on the second page of the story, silent but with same great body language, obviously wanting to connect with Dani but not sure how. You might be right about Rik and Chihdo, I'd have to check. As for Dani, I just find it hard to care about how cut up she is about Kiro's death, because we've never seen her really be all that caring towards him. It's much easier to empathise with Luke in that opening splash page, where he's sitting in a tree, wistfully thinking of his Iskalonian friend, because we've seen plenty of evidence of their friendship in previous issues. With Dani, we saw virtually nothing of her and Kiro's romance. The psychological torment that Dani experienced after being probed by Den Siva's analysis beams is much easier to empathise with because we saw what they did to her. All Duffy keeps doing is telling us how much Dani loved Kiro, but she's never once shown us. That's the problem with this aspect of the current storyline for me. Also just how tall is Bey meant to be anyway? He is half-human but in that panel you posted he looks about twelve foot something(!) Yeah, his height seems to vary wildly in the comic. I think he's supposed to be about the same height as Chewbacca, so about 2 meters. A quick look at Wookieepedia confirms this.
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 28, 2016 13:12:24 GMT -5
That said, there was a discussion here in the forum recently about how certain artists have a classic period and then their work tails off. Several people mentioned Infantino in connection with that topic and I have to say that I agree. To my eyes (and yes, I realise that this is subjective), his art on SW isn't a patch on what he did on The Flash or with Adam Strange in Mystery in Space. Plus, as the 70s dawned, Infantino's art changed and became increasingly angular, hard-edged, and prone to positioning characters in ungainly and uncomfortable looking poses -- and there's ample evidence of this in the pages of Marvel's Star Wars comic. Well, uncomfortable poses were also said to come from the pencils of Kirby, Steranko, McFarlane, et al. I think you hit it on the head with "willful" and "stylised spin" in the assessment of Infantino's work. As an artist with years of experience illustrating science fiction vehicles, weapons, etc., he was not green when working on Star Wars--he was adding his own flair to the subject, much in the way George Perez illustrated Logan's Run or Kirby's interpretation of 2001. Not exact, but the heart of the film worlds' visual information was there. Take this panel-to-film comparison for example: Not exact, but Infantino was very aware of the details--even something as easy to overlook as the piping embellishment on the sleeves of the Rebel pilot & Luke ceremonial jacket. Or the intricate ridges on Vader's bodysuit (a biker outfit in real life). That's the kind detail some might consider pointless--just "get the basic look down" and nothing more, but he was paying attention, and that--at least to me--kept his work in the realm of legitimate Star Wars. I hear you, but I place this too in the "style" category, as its pretty apparent he could move as close to the source if he wanted to, or go in another direction, as seen in this panel-to-film comparison: Poor Chewbacca never had great representation during the Marvel run: From the early days to the final Marvel issue, other artists had the Wookie looking like some cousin to Marvel's Wendigo and the Jack Links Beef Jerky Bigfoot! Thanks for that information--I did not Goodwin did that. Sort of strange, as Infantino had provided similar guides at DC from time to time.
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Post by rom on Nov 28, 2016 14:06:29 GMT -5
Several comments on some of the last posts:
I have never been a huge Carmine Infantino fan, but did also really like the way he drew the SW characters - especially the lightsabers, Darth Vader, Stormtroopers, and tech. I did notice that some of the tech./ships were stylized, and didn't mind this at all - he put his own unique "spin" on the SW universe.
I'm not surprised that Al Williamson couldn't commit to the regular SW comic series - he was such a great artist, I'm guessing it took him longer to draw comics than it may have another artist who wasn't nearly as good. I am glad he was able to produce the SW comics he did draw (ESB & ROTJ adaptations, most of #50 & #98) and the SW newspaper strips. The strips definitely took less time to draw, so those were obviously much less demanding time-wise for him.
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Post by Confessor on Nov 30, 2016 19:38:54 GMT -5
Star Wars #100Cover dated: October 1985 Issue title: First StrikeScript: Mary Jo Duffy Artwork: Cynthia Martin (pencils)/Art Nichols (inks)/Sam de la Rosa (inks) Colours: Petra Scotese Letters: Rick Parker Cover art: Tom Palmer Overall rating: 3½ out of 10 Plot summary: On the forest moon of Endor, the Alliance of Free Planets' high command detects a fleet of Nagai starships headed towards their base. After dispatching a squadron of Alliance and Mandalorian fighter craft to meet the invaders, Admiral Ackbar orders the immediate evacuation of the Endor base, in order to prevent the Ewoks from getting caught up in the conflict. However, Luke Skywalker and Han Solo are unable to accompany the other Alliance pilots on the mission because they both recently failed a piloting exam, due to their unorthodox flying skills. As the Alliance craft leave the base, Han and Luke venture into the forest with Tippet the Ewok and discover a group of Nagai, led by Han's adversary Knife, along with a number of armour-clad Maccabree warriors. They overhear that the enemy troops are preparing to attack the base, while the Alliance's best pilots are all away fighting in space. The pair also learn that there is a traitor within their ranks who has been leaking strategic information about combat formations to the Nagai, which will give the invaders the upper hand and allow them to massacre the Alliance pilots. As the Nagai and Maccabree depart for the Alliance base, Luke races ahead of them to warn his friends. Walking back on foot, Han comes across his old friend Bey, who reveals that it is he who is leaking information to the Nagai, since he is half-Nagai himself. At that moment, Knife appears on the scene and attempts to shoot Solo, but Bey steps in and blasts the Nagai in his side. Cradling the wounded Knife in his arms, Bey explains to Solo that the Nagai warrior is actually his half-brother. Elsewhere, Luke reaches the base and informs Ackbar and Mon Mothma of the impending ground attack. He also explains that the Nagai fleet already know all of the Alliance's flight manoeuvres. Ackbar contacts the Alliance ships, who are getting badly beaten by a squadron of enemy craft led by Lumiya, the Dark Lady of the Sith, and tells them to abandon their pre-planed combat formations. Lando Calrissian takes the initiative in the Cobra and leads the other pilots in a successful counter-attack, using one of Han's unorthodox piloting techniques to win the day. Back on Endor, the Maccabree warriors arrive at the Alliance base and attack, but Luke uses the Force to deduce that the creatures within their armoured bodies are located within the torso section. By focusing his attacks on that part of their anatomy, he is able to beat them. Realising that the tide of the battle has turned, the Maccabrees jettison their robotic arm and leg appendages and rocket away into the sky in cylindrical escape pods. With the rest of the Alliance now successfully evacuated, Luke suggests that he, Han, Princess Leia and her four Zeltron escorts leave Endor as soon as possible, before the Nagai can regroup. Comments: So, here we are at the 100th issue of Star Wars. Who at Marvel or Lucasfilm could've foreseen back in early 1977, when it started, that the series would still be going strong 100 issues later? Of course, much of the comic's staying power is down to how popular the Star Wars films became and the resultant fan interest in anything related to the franchise. But, that said, the comic certainly did a fantastic job of maintaining interest in Star Wars between those cinematic instalments of the saga, as well as greatly expanding the scope of that galaxy far, far away and fleshing out concepts that were only hinted at in the movies. This double-sized anniversary issue, which sports a very attractive painted cover by Tom Palmer, deals with the invading Nagai's first direct assault on the Alliance of Free Planet's base. However, while that event should be an exciting escalation of the ongoing invasion, this comic really isn't very gripping. It's hard to say why, exactly, but the story seems slow and rather dull to me. The narrative is also kind of disjointed in places, like there are pages missing or something. Even when writer Jo Duffy gives us the return of the arch-villain Lumiya, it's a decidedly anticlimactic return. The Dark Lady of the Sith appears fleetingly while leading the Nagai in the space battle against the Alliance, but really, her role in this battle is thoroughly underwhelming and it could've just as easily been another Nagai warrior leading the attack, for all the difference it would've made. Talking of the Nagai, the secret landing party of Maccabrees and Nagai warriors that attack the Alliance base don't really seem all that threatening. I do think that the Maccabrees are an interesting creation and they are kind of creepy too, but their silly name (which sounds much too close to the Jewish Maccabees of Biblical lore) and their "fat Iron Man" design, undercut and diminish any menace that Duffy might have hoped to imbue them with. However, I do like the idea that the Nagai invasion has been years in the planning. Han Solo's childhood friend Bey explains in this issue that his mother was an advanced scout for the alien invaders and that the entire race were waiting to see who won the Galactic Civil War before attempting to conquer the victors. That level of patient premeditation makes them seem a whole lot more sinister to me. On the downside, Han's whole confrontation with Bey and the shocking revelation that he is half-Nagai and an informant for the enemy, just kinda falls flat. I think that is mostly due to Bey having only appeared last issue – that's too short a time for readers to be all that shocked by his betrayal. I mean, it's not as if he was a long-standing and beloved member of the supporting cast or anything. Something else I really don't like is the plot element about Luke Skywalker and Han not being allowed to fly against the Nagai attack force because of a computer error associated with their piloting exams. That's just ridiculous! It's completely unbelievable that the Alliance would ground its two best pilots, just when they were facing a direct attack on their base from an enemy force. It also doesn't align with what we've previously seen in the Star Wars films: Luke was allowed to fly an X-wing during the first Death Star battle based on little more than a recommendation from his friend Biggs! Now, after years of flight practice and countless successful missions, he's suddenly grounded due to failing an exam?! Of course, I realise that having Han and Luke grounded is just a plot contrivance to ensure that they are on Endor to discover and thwart the secret Nagai ground assault. But nonetheless, it's still a really poor storytelling decision on Duffy's part, I think. It makes the Alliance top brass look like a bunch of idiots. Something that I want to make note of is that this issue represents the first and only time that the Corellian bloodstripe is mentioned in the Marvel series. For those who don't know, the bloodstripe is an award given for outstanding gallantry by the Corellian military, which is worn as red or yellow piping down the sides of a person's trousers... This piping was first referenced as a military award in Brian Daley's 1979 novel, Han Solo at Star's End, but it wasn't actually named as the bloodstripe until Daley's Han Solo and the Lost Legacy in 1980. Duffy shows us Bey getting the bloodstripe in a flashback sequence, when he and Han were both young men. As for the artwork in this issue, I really do hate to be so continually negative about Cynthia Martin's work on the series, but it almost seems like her art is deteriorating with every issue she draws. As I've said before, I do kind of like the vaguely art nouveau influences present in her work, and she was way ahead of the pack in bringing Japanese manga influences into a mainstream American comic book too, but her art is just so cartoony that it doesn't say "Star Wars" to me. Her panel composition is also rather confusing at times and it's not always entirely clear what is happening. Also, there are some, frankly, terrible depictions of X-wing fighters and the Millennium Falcon in this issue. Just look at this panel showing the Alliance hangar... Overall, I've gotta say that this is a very disappointing issue. I would've expected a much more exciting story and a lot more bang for your buck in a 100th issue special like this. I would've also expected much better artwork. Ultimately, it's hard not to see this issue as yet more evidence of Duffy steadily going off of the boil on the series. Unfortunately, that steady deterioration will continue up to the end of the run and Martin's increasingly scrappy and cartoony artwork only adds to the sense of this being a series that is well past its glory days. Continuity issues: None Favourite panel: Favourite quote: "Sanity has nothing to do with it! I was a smuggler. That's how we all fly. And Luke's supposed to be crazy, too. He's got the Force." – An exasperated Han Solo tries to explain the intricacies of his and Luke Skywalker's flying technique to the Alliance command.
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Post by tex1272 on Dec 1, 2016 14:17:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I always found #100 underwhelming as well. Wasn't it around this point in the run that the book went to a bi monthly format? Also, I didn't care for Martin's work either. All the letters printed in the Star Words columns seemed to gush all over her work and I always wondered about the negative letters they didn't print.
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Post by Confessor on Dec 1, 2016 14:40:39 GMT -5
Wasn't it around this point in the run that the book went to a bi monthly format? The series went bi-monthly with issues #103 and #104 (cover dated January and March 1986 respectively).
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Post by tex1272 on Dec 1, 2016 17:02:18 GMT -5
Ok. I knew it started with an issue in the hundreds. I remember being pretty bummed out as it being a sign the end was near.
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Post by Confessor on Dec 1, 2016 18:47:19 GMT -5
Ok. I knew it started with an issue in the hundreds. I remember being pretty bummed out as it being a sign the end was near. I was buying the UK weekly comic, so I had no idea about it going bi-monthly in the U.S. I had actually dropped Marvel UK's SW comic by this point anyway, as I noted in my review of issue #97.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 2, 2016 7:42:57 GMT -5
Star Wars #100. Whew. Talk about a classic example of the interiors failing to live up to the cover.
The Nagai seemed like an interesting concept on paper, but the problem Marvel had--which it would always deal with--is a need to escape the large shadow of the "war" of the Star Wars movies, and make the reader believe that as galaxy-spanning, as oppressive as Palpatine's Empire was, that another group could just be sitting around waiting to strike--undetected.
I have a difficult time believing the Force would have prevented Palpatine or Vader from sensing another threat. In fact, they seemed to fine tune their Force sensibilities to zero in on threats, so one would imagine the Nagai would have been sensed or suspected (even if vague) somewhere along the way.
Then, there was Cynthia Martin. I have strong memories of my SW-reading friends despising everything about her work, and I cannot say my feelings were too far from that. It was one thing for the films to wrap up--nothing to do about that, but at least Marvel could have retained an artist that was capable of carrying on the last artistically satisfying run of the series. My own copies of Comics Journal, Marvel Age, etc., are in storage, so I cannot recall what the SW editorial staff said to justify hiring Martin for such a high profile title. It would be fascinating to learn the reason why, because her landing the biggest licensed property of the early 1980s just sparks questions.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 2, 2016 9:11:40 GMT -5
I think the Nagai as a concept (an outside threat) is fine, but they did a better job of it in the EU novels than here. In the EU novels, we actually get to see the New Republic clean up and take over the Galaxy, and fight remnants of the Empire that must surely exist if it was 1/10 as powerful as it was described. By the time they got to their external threat, the Republic had been around long enough, and been busy enough, to have it make sense they didn't see it coming.
I think the mistake the comics made, if one wanted to be critical of the overall plot, was they thought too small... there was alot of the same places used again and again, and one got the feeling that Luke, Leia and Lando could handle all the bad guys in the galaxy themselves. I'm sure alot of that was editorial mandate, though... I'm not sure what they would have been allowed to do differently.
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Post by rom on Dec 2, 2016 11:19:13 GMT -5
Then, there was Cynthia Martin. I have strong memories of my SW-reading friends despising everything about her work, and I cannot say my feelings were too far from that. It was one thing for the films to wrap up--nothing to do about that, but at least Marvel could have retained an artist that was capable of carrying on the last artistically satisfying run of the series. My own copies of Comics Journal, Marvel Age, etc., are in storage, so I cannot recall what the SW editorial staff said to justify hiring Martin for such a high profile title. It would be fascinating to learn the reason why, because her landing the biggest licensed property of the early 1980s just sparks questions. I have mixed feelings about CM's art in these latter issues of the Marvel SW comic. At the time, I was a teen & was moving away from SW & comics (though I got back into them later); I wasn't really collecting the series & didn't like the art at all; I would glance through an issue here & there, but wasn't impressed. However, as I've gotten older I've come to appreciate the art more - though I still agree it's not a good "fit" for a SW series.
Honestly, I don't think Marvel much cared about who they picked to draw these post-ROTJ SW issues. The entire SW franchise was pretty much winding down from around 1984-on. There were no new SW films on the horizon (at that time), and other than the Marvel comic & the underrated Ewoks/Droids cartoons, by the mid-1980's SW was losing popularity/relevance in the public's consciousness. I'm not sure how well the Marvel comic was doing, but I'm guessing that there were other fans who, like me, were moving on from the series due to the lack of direction, etc.; also, after the Empire's defeat in ROTJ, I wasn't really that interested in stories taking place in the SW universe that were set after the film (even these days, the post-ROTJ storylines are my least favorite in the SW EU & the films). Re: CM's art, I'm not sure if a better artist would have made that much of a difference re: the popularity of the comic - but I obviously could be wrong here. I guess we'll never know.
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Post by Confessor on Dec 2, 2016 11:43:58 GMT -5
The Nagai seemed like an interesting concept on paper, but the problem Marvel had--which it would always deal with--is a need to escape the large shadow of the "war" of the Star Wars movies, and make the reader believe that as galaxy-spanning, as oppressive as Palpatine's Empire was, that another group could just be sitting around waiting to strike--undetected. I have a difficult time believing the Force would have prevented Palpatine or Vader from sensing another threat. In fact, they seemed to fine tune their Force sensibilities to zero in on threats, so one would imagine the Nagai would have been sensed or suspected (even if vague) somewhere along the way. Well, the "get out", if you like, was that the Nagai weren't from the SW galaxy at all, but from outside of it. I think that's been retconed slightly since then, but that's certainly the way that Jo Duffy regarded them at the time. But I agree, you would've thought that Palpatine and Vader, or even Yoda, would've sensed something. Then, there was Cynthia Martin. I have strong memories of my SW-reading friends despising everything about her work, and I cannot say my feelings were too far from that. It was one thing for the films to wrap up--nothing to do about that, but at least Marvel could have retained an artist that was capable of carrying on the last artistically satisfying run of the series. My own copies of Comics Journal, Marvel Age, etc., are in storage, so I cannot recall what the SW editorial staff said to justify hiring Martin for such a high profile title. It would be fascinating to learn the reason why, because her landing the biggest licensed property of the early 1980s just sparks questions. Yeah, I've never read much about exactly why Cynthia Martin was brought on board the title as a replacement for Ron Frenz. I don't think she had done much for Marvel prior to her stint on SW and she only did a handful of issues of Web of Spider-Man and maybe some other stuff afterwards. As you note, even though its sales were dwindling, SW was still a pretty popular book for Marvel. Jo Duffy has been quoted in interviews as saying that, even when it was cancelled, it was still selling 100,000 copies a month, which was comparable to many 2nd tier superhero titles of the day. One reason for Martin having been recruited may've been Jo Duffy's love of all things Japanese and manga-influenced. Martin very definitely has a manga-esque bent to her artwork and so perhaps Duffy pushed for her to work on the title for that reason? I'm only guessing here though, obviously. I think that Martin's artwork is a "love it or hate it" type of thing. I've read things online before now where fans of the series have said how great they thought it was and I've also seen plenty of others saying how much they hated it. I personally fall into the latter category, but I think her style is quite polarising among fans of the series. I think the Nagai as a concept (an outside threat) is fine, but they did a better job of it in the EU novels than here. In the EU novels, we actually get to see the New Republic clean up and take over the Galaxy, and fight remnants of the Empire that must surely exist if it was 1/10 as powerful as it was described. By the time they got to their external threat, the Republic had been around long enough, and been busy enough, to have it make sense they didn't see it coming. I think the mistake the comics made, if one wanted to be critical of the overall plot, was they thought too small... there was alot of the same places used again and again, and one got the feeling that Luke, Leia and Lando could handle all the bad guys in the galaxy themselves. I'm sure alot of that was editorial mandate, though... I'm not sure what they would have been allowed to do differently. I think those are some valid points, wildfire2099. However, I should just note that the Nagai did actually align themselves with some of the remnants of the Empire in the Marvel run.
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Post by Confessor on Dec 2, 2016 11:54:29 GMT -5
However, as I've gotten older I've come to appreciate the art more - though I still agree it's not a good "fit" for a SW series. Yeah, I think that's the thing; it's not so much that her art is bad -- although it is sometimes a bit sloppy from a technical standpoint -- it's more that it wasn't a good fit for SW. It was especially jarring coming after the highly authentic and movie-accurate pencils and inks of Walt Simonson, Ron Frenz, Bob McLeod, and Tom Palmer. Honestly, I don't think Marvel much cared about who they picked to draw these post-ROTJ SW issues. The entire SW franchise was pretty much winding down from around 1984-on. There were no new SW films on the horizon (at that time), and other than the Marvel comic & the underrated Ewoks/Droids cartoons, by the mid-1980's SW was losing popularity/relevance in the public's consciousness. I'm not sure how well the Marvel comic was doing, but I'm guessing that there were other fans who, like me, were moving on from the series due to the lack of direction, etc.; also, after the Empire's defeat in ROTJ, I wasn't really that interested in stories taking place in the SW universe that were set after the film (even these days, the post-ROTJ storylines are my least favorite in the SW EU & the films). Re: CM's art, I'm not sure if a better artist would have made that much of a difference re: the popularity of the comic - but I obviously could be wrong here. I guess we'll never know. You're definitely right about SW "winding down" and fandom moving on to other things, by this point in the Marvel run. I, for one, had dropped the British reprints of the series, just prior to the issues I'm now reviewing. However, as I noted above to tarkintino, the series was not cancelled due to poor sales. It was still selling around 100,000 copies per month at the end. From things i've read, it seems that it was more of a case of the creative team being increasingly stifled and hindered by edicts from Lucasfilm about what they could or couldn't do with the characters post-ROTJ. Duffy has said in interviews that, with George Lucas himself having moved on to other projects, no new SW film in sight, and ever more draconian rules being handed down to the comic on what it was allowed to show, Marvel got the distinct impression that Lucasfilm really didn't want a SW comic on the shelves anymore.
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