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Post by aquagoat on May 23, 2018 9:21:26 GMT -5
Urrrrghh...that Cam Kennedy artwork. ![(puke)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sick.png) Dark Empire is a great mini-series, but I never liked Kennedy's art, even when he was drawing strips for 2000 AD back in the '80s. He's an even worse fit for SW than Infantino! Ha ha. On this we're not going to agree then...Cam Kennedy is one of my favourite comic artists, I love everything he's done, from Rogue Trooper to Dark Empire to The Light & Darkness War. I found his art to be a perfect fit for the grim, ruined universe post-ROTJ. But I know a lot of people aren't keen on it.
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Post by aquagoat on May 24, 2018 7:00:05 GMT -5
Has anyone noticed how silly this image is, from issue #33? Luke, who can't see, swinging a lightsaber around the cramped Falcon cockpit, literally right behind Han? He's inches from being decapitated. ![](https://image.ibb.co/mXucWT/saber.png)
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Post by rberman on May 24, 2018 7:11:15 GMT -5
Has anyone noticed how silly this image is, from issue #33? Luke, who can't see, swinging a lightsaber around the cramped Falcon cockpit, literally right behind Han? He's inches from being decapitated. ![](https://image.ibb.co/mXucWT/saber.png) It's supposed to show that Luke has gotten so much better with the lightsaber and Force Sight that there's no danger of hitting Han. But mainly it shows that the writers don't understand how little space there is behind the chairs in the tiny cockpit of the Falcon. Luke would have more room to maneuver in the Falcon lavatory.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on May 24, 2018 7:22:23 GMT -5
Has anyone noticed how silly this image is, from issue #33? Luke, who can't see, swinging a lightsaber around the cramped Falcon cockpit, literally right behind Han? He's inches from being decapitated. ![](https://image.ibb.co/mXucWT/saber.png) It's supposed to show that Luke has gotten so much better with the lightsaber and Force Sight that there's no danger of hitting Han. But mainly it shows that the writers don't understand how little space there is behind the chairs in the tiny cockpit of the Falcon. Luke would have more room to maneuver in the Falcon lavatory. Yeah, the artists consistently misunderstood the layout of the Falcon in those early issues. This inaccuracy began right from Star Wars #2, where Howard Chaykin shows the Falcon cockpit as adjoining the "lounge section", where the holochess board is. Also note that, in the Marvel run, Luke actually hits the training remote with his lightsaber, rather than just deflecting its laser bolts. This inaccuracy again started with the comic adaptation of Star Wars and continued right up until Luke's training on Dagobah with Yoda in the Empire adaptation.
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Post by aquagoat on May 25, 2018 12:55:35 GMT -5
Another thing I wanted to highlight was this guy from way back in #7....we don't learn his name, but we find a lot about him in a short space of time. He's described as an insectoid priest (Han calls him 'Pera' i.e. father), and he follows something called 'The Sacred Way'. But he's also a warrior - he kicks ass, but forgives his attackers. He seems to have the ability to mysteriously appear from nowhere, although that could just be the writer making up for the fact that he hadn't been drawn in any of the previous frames of the scene. He's very nobly trying to take a dead cyborg to be buried amidst an angry mob trying to stop him. Plus his weapon is cool. Perhaps understandably he never turned up again as Star Wars already has a bunch of warrior-monks, but I'd love to have seen more of this guy. An alternative religion to the Force could have been really interesting...put him in Episode IX, JJ!! ![](https://image.ibb.co/hJArT8/pera.png)
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 5, 2018 10:22:12 GMT -5
Finally Getting around to finish the Epic collection.
#38 "Riders on the Void'
I LOVE Golden's art... the story seems like a Star Trek episode, and it's a bit creepy they get saved because Luke says 'I love you' to Leia (which she either ignores or didn't hear, as she doesn't respond), but it's very pretty and a fun one off.
'Way of the Wookie'
Very clunky with Chewie being the main dialogue, so instead of showing it translated from Wookie, or in thought baloons, we just have Han randomly repeating everything like he was an 87 year old man.
Those bits of Han's dialogue there are are not great either.. they're trying to hard to make him not be 'good', and it's really forced. That said, it IS neat to see an actual story behind why Jabba was after him, and Chewie's characterization seems pretty good.
'Day After the Death Star'
While I like the moral, and the action is well done, the logic of the story is really bad. Are we supposed to believe that hours after the Death Star exploded, everyone is having a party and the medal ceremony is all ready to go? That should be a couple days at least tending to wounding, counting the dead, mopping up ,etc. The Rebels just had a bunch of medals lying around the base in case they won and wanted to party? Come on.
Never mind that the sky should neither be empty (debris should abound), nor should a single tie be surprising.. there should be LOTS. You can't say the Death Star's explosion vaporized everything, because the good guys all survived, so where are the bad guys? Ties don't have hyperdrives.
I don't think Luke and Han would be bordering on coming to blows over Leia, either... especially that soon after the battle.
It is pretty awesome they give Chewey his medal though... that totally makes the story worth it even with the silliness.
'Weaponsmaster'
THe switch the focus to Leia on this one (nice cycling through each main character with a flashback).. we learn how she learned how to shoot.. an army buddy of her father's who turned mercenary. I'm not sure it makes sense that Bail Organa ever was a soldier in the Clone Wars, but others a good story that doesn't have anything too terrible in it continuity wise. Certainly predictible, but that happens.
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Post by aquagoat on Jun 5, 2018 14:04:38 GMT -5
I agree with Riders in the Void, the art is wonderful. One thing that stands out is the lightsaber duel between Luke and the droid....I'd say it's the best lightsaber duel ever depicted in a comic. Sword fights are very hard to illustrate in comics. 90% of them just look really boring, or static, or both. Yet this one has clear choreography, motion you can follow, energy and drama. ![](https://image.ibb.co/ipBMk8/lighf.png) The other notable image in this issue..... ![](https://image.ibb.co/eRFQCo/leiaph.png) ....wow. I mean....the amount of sexual imagery crammed into that panel is off the charts. How did Michael Golden get away with it? As for the Weaponsmaster story, specifically the bit with Leia getting an older mentor....a very, very similar plotline takes place in the new Han Solo movie.
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 5, 2018 21:58:50 GMT -5
Yeah, the artists consistently misunderstood the layout of the Falcon in those early issues. This inaccuracy began right from Star Wars #2, where Howard Chaykin shows the Falcon cockpit as adjoining the "lounge section", where the holochess board is. That was a glaring visual from the moment I bought the comic in '77; there were certainly enough photo references for Chaykin to get it right--or was it convenient (lazy?) to just have the interior of the Falcon be one open area to avoid penciling the endless machine bits, tubes and wires of the ship's main hold? I wonder how Chaykin or Thomas screwed that up; in the screenplay, I believe the seeker always shot laser bolts at Luke, not physically hit him like a baseball.
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Post by aquagoat on Jun 7, 2018 14:43:33 GMT -5
I don't think they screwed it up; they just decided to change it, probably to make the action simpler and clearer.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on Jul 4, 2018 4:50:44 GMT -5
Finally Getting around to finish the Epic collection. #38 "Riders on the Void' I LOVE Golden's art... the story seems like a Star Trek episode, and it's a bit creepy they get saved because Luke says 'I love you' to Leia (which she either ignores or didn't hear, as she doesn't respond), but it's very pretty and a fun one off. 'Way of the Wookie' Very clunky with Chewie being the main dialogue, so instead of showing it translated from Wookie, or in thought baloons, we just have Han randomly repeating everything like he was an 87 year old man. Those bits of Han's dialogue there are are not great either.. they're trying to hard to make him not be 'good', and it's really forced. That said, it IS neat to see an actual story behind why Jabba was after him, and Chewie's characterization seems pretty good. 'Day After the Death Star' While I like the moral, and the action is well done, the logic of the story is really bad. Are we supposed to believe that hours after the Death Star exploded, everyone is having a party and the medal ceremony is all ready to go? That should be a couple days at least tending to wounding, counting the dead, mopping up ,etc. The Rebels just had a bunch of medals lying around the base in case they won and wanted to party? Come on. Never mind that the sky should neither be empty (debris should abound), nor should a single tie be surprising.. there should be LOTS. You can't say the Death Star's explosion vaporized everything, because the good guys all survived, so where are the bad guys? Ties don't have hyperdrives. I don't think Luke and Han would be bordering on coming to blows over Leia, either... especially that soon after the battle. It is pretty awesome they give Chewey his medal though... that totally makes the story worth it even with the silliness. 'Weaponsmaster' THe switch the focus to Leia on this one (nice cycling through each main character with a flashback).. we learn how she learned how to shoot.. an army buddy of her father's who turned mercenary. I'm not sure it makes sense that Bail Organa ever was a soldier in the Clone Wars, but others a good story that doesn't have anything too terrible in it continuity wise. Certainly predictible, but that happens. Been meaning to respond to this forever, but I pretty much agree with all of your opinions about these various stories.
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Post by rberman on Jul 4, 2018 5:38:53 GMT -5
'Day After the Death Star' While I like the moral, and the action is well done, the logic of the story is really bad. Are we supposed to believe that hours after the Death Star exploded, everyone is having a party and the medal ceremony is all ready to go? That should be a couple days at least tending to wounding, counting the dead, mopping up ,etc. The Rebels just had a bunch of medals lying around the base in case they won and wanted to party? Come on. Never mind that the sky should neither be empty (debris should abound), nor should a single tie be surprising.. there should be LOTS. You can't say the Death Star's explosion vaporized everything, because the good guys all survived, so where are the bad guys? Ties don't have hyperdrives. I don't think Luke and Han would be bordering on coming to blows over Leia, either... especially that soon after the battle. It is pretty awesome they give Chewie his medal though... that totally makes the story worth it even with the silliness. Now that you mention it, the finale of the original Star Wars makes less sense the more you think about it. The end of the movie feels final, as if the rebels had wone the whole war, which obviously is not the case. Unless Tarkin was a complete idiot who disregards military protocol, he transmitted his information about the rebel base back to Imperial Command, who would have sent a large task force with multiple Star Destroyers to assist the Death Star with mopping up any survivors fleeing the Yavin area. So I hope the rebels are packing their bags instead of throwing parties! As for TIEs, there should have been lots of them, way more than the film could afford to show us. (For that matter, there would have been an entire carrier group supporting the Death Star wherever it went.) If they had known to flee the Death Star explosion (or at least to chase the rebels who were fleeings the imminent explosion) then we should see some of those TIEs needing to be mopped up. But the film showed no TIEs surviving the Death Star; only the Falcon, Luke and Wedge's X-Wings, and an unknown Y-Wing. So while the film's depiction on this matter seems unlikely, at least the relative lack of surviving TIEs is consistent with what the film did show. The lack of shrapnel is a general limitation on the part of all Star Wars films, and many films like them. Everything seems to explode into atoms, or nearly so. again, a limitation of the special effects of that day.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 5, 2018 0:23:18 GMT -5
You could write off the Death Star's lack of support to arrogance... the movie made it quite clear he thought the Death Star was the last word in weapons. If you take that as a given, you can assume that the star Destroyers that surely were coming took a while (days at least for both travel and organization) and the Rebels had time to either fortify or flee. One also of course has to assume the Emperor is napping in his egg or something, but if you consider Dark Empire, you can assume he was swapping bodies and letting Vader handle this. That also helps make the Marvel Darth Vader comic fit in really nicely. See, canon is great when you make your own! I personally always think about stuff related to limits on special effects budget as 'zooming' on the main characters. In my head, the dog fight around the Death Star had hundreds of ships on both sides, we just only see the ones involving our heroes. Treating it as they didn't exist makes it hard to maintain that illusion ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 5, 2018 7:27:00 GMT -5
Now that you mention it, the finale of the original Star Wars makes less sense the more you think about it. The end of the movie feels final, as if the rebels had wone the whole war, which obviously is not the case. I think that can be excused as simply being a cinematic device: Lucas and 20th Century Fox had no idea whether Star Wars would be a hit and so, they had to produce a fully self-contained story with a proper ending, since they had no idea if they would be making a sequel. Viewing Star Wars in this context, as a single movie, the whole "Rebels have won the war" message at the end does kind of make sense. I mean, aside from a few scattered Imperial forces on Tatooine, we hadn't really seen much of the Empire away from the Death Star. There's no mention of an Imperial capital planet for example or much indication of just how big the Empire was. Unless Tarkin was a complete idiot who disregards military protocol, he transmitted his information about the rebel base back to Imperial Command, who would have sent a large task force with multiple Star Destroyers to assist the Death Star with mopping up any survivors fleeing the Yavin area. So I hope the rebels are packing their bags instead of throwing parties! You could write off the Death Star's lack of support to arrogance... the movie made it quite clear he thought the Death Star was the last word in weapons. If you take that as a given, you can assume that the star Destroyers that surely were coming took a while (days at least for both travel and organization) and the Rebels had time to either fortify or flee. To be fair, the Marvel run did attempt to address the issue of why the Imperials didn't simply return in the days following the Battle of Yavin and annihilate the Rebel base. Well, sort of... To begin with, Roy Thomas has the Rebels believing that they'd be safe on the Fourth Moon of Yavin until such time as Darth Vader re-establishes contact with the Empire -- which is totally illogical, since clearly the Empire already knew exactly where the Rebel base was when they sent the Death Star to destroy it in the movie. A detail as important as the enemy's secret location would certainly have been logged in the Imperial files and wouldn't have been completely lost with the Death Star's destruction. Archie Goodwin does a little better of explaining it later on the run, by claiming that the Empire had been unnerved by the Rebel's unexpected victory against the Death Star and, as a result, they had the House of Tagge blockade the Yavin system to prevent news of the Rebel's success from leaking out. Fearing that it would draw more systems to the Rebellion. While that's not exactly watertight, Goodwin's explanation that fear of a second high-profile defeat at the hands of the Rebellion giving the Empire pause for thought does at least account for why the Emperor didn't send an armada to crush the Alliance on Yavin 4 straight away. Of course, you could argue that it's strange for the Rebels to hang around on Yavin 4 long enough for the Empire to get around to doing this, but Goodwin's writing at least provides a decent in-universe explanation for the Rebel base on Yavin 4's continued use.
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 5, 2018 10:02:23 GMT -5
Now that you mention it, the finale of the original Star Wars makes less sense the more you think about it. The end of the movie feels final, as if the rebels had wone the whole war, which obviously is not the case. I think that can be excused as simply being a cinematic device: Lucas and 20th Century Fox had no idea whether Star Wars would be a hit and so, they had to produce a fully self-contained story with a proper ending, since they had no idea if they would be making a sequel. Viewing Star Wars in this context, as a single movie, the whole "Rebels have won the war" message at the end does kind of make sense. I mean, aside from a few scattered Imperial forces on Tatooine, we hadn't really seen much of the Empire away from the Death Star. There's no mention of an Imperial capital planet for example or much indication of just how big the Empire was. Unless Tarkin was a complete idiot who disregards military protocol, he transmitted his information about the rebel base back to Imperial Command, who would have sent a large task force with multiple Star Destroyers to assist the Death Star with mopping up any survivors fleeing the Yavin area. So I hope the rebels are packing their bags instead of throwing parties! You could write off the Death Star's lack of support to arrogance... the movie made it quite clear he thought the Death Star was the last word in weapons. If you take that as a given, you can assume that the star Destroyers that surely were coming took a while (days at least for both travel and organization) and the Rebels had time to either fortify or flee. To be fair, the Marvel run did attempt to address the issue of why the Imperials didn't simply return in the days following the Battle of Yavin and annihilate the Rebel base. Well, sort of... To begin with, Roy Thomas has the Rebels believing that they'd be safe on the Fourth Moon of Yavin until such time as Darth Vader re-establishes contact with the Empire -- which is totally illogical, since clearly the Empire already knew exactly where the Rebel base was when they sent the Death Star to destroy it in the movie. A detail as important as the enemy's secret location would certainly have been logged in the Imperial files and wouldn't have been completely lost with the Death Star's destruction. Archie Goodwin does a little better of explaining it later on the run, by claiming that the Empire had been unnerved by the Rebel's unexpected victory against the Death Star and, as a result, they had the House of Tagge blockade the Yavin system to prevent news of the Rebel's success from leaking out. Fearing that it would draw more systems to the Rebellion. While that's not exactly watertight, Goodwin's explanation that fear of a second high-profile defeat at the hands of the Rebellion giving the Empire pause for thought does at least account for why the Emperor didn't send an armada to crush the Alliance on Yavin 4 straight away. Of course, you could argue that it's strange for the Rebels to hang around on Yavin 4 long enough for the Empire to get around to doing this, but Goodwin's writing at least provides a decent in-universe explanation for the Rebel base on Yavin 4's continued use. In my head canon, I have it so hyperspace travel takes a lot longer than the films make it seem, especially when more remote regions of the galaxy are concerned. It just solves so many problems.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 12, 2018 23:27:00 GMT -5
I finally got around to the last pre-Empire story, World of Fire.. which I thought was the worst of the lot... I agree with most of Confessor's points... the fact that the Rebels HAVE archoloegists at all was a big one.. perhaps more important, if the Starraker was important enough to send Luke and Leia to steal, why the heck would you risk it on a dangerous scouting mission?? That made NO sense, especially since there was little chance of survivors (no contact AND nothing from a scout party. Then there's the digging through the lava with the lightsaber, which should have taken months and left lots of debris. There there's the fact that Artoo is suddenly a doctor.. why would an astromech have a medical library? There was no need for it, as it would have been just a well and more logical for the ship to have it. Don't even get me started with the fast that Leia did surgery and it all went perfectly despite having no skills and no tools. The the next day Mici is fine after some imperial aspirin FWIW, she was clearly intended to be African-American in the black and white art.. I got a Misty Knight vibe right away. Then there's the fact that they flew away with a ship THAT PLOWED THROUGH LAVA. It was illogical enough they survived, but to fix it after a few days is too much, IMO. I did like the Imperial Major, I was a little sad he didn't sign on.. hope we see him again. On an art note, what's up with Luke's hand on the cover of the 2nd part of the story (108).. did he turn into a seal? IIRC, vol 3 of the epic collection is out really soon, so I should be at those in no time ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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