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Post by Action Ace on Jan 7, 2015 20:11:56 GMT -5
The scary thing is that in 2021 we will have to consider the Nu52 and Marvel NOW! as classics.  Let me worry about getting to 2021 first. |
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Post by dupersuper on Jan 8, 2015 4:51:21 GMT -5
I would argue that "they have done really sucky stories like this before" is not a great defense. Disassembled is not terribly different than Simonson's dismantling of the team in #291-297 - though of course Simonson is a vastly superior writer - but there's a very good reason why most Avengers fans, including myself and most of the others on these boards, consider the end of the golden age of Avengers comics to be #300. Because that Simonson storyline and its aftermath (both in terms of the stories and the creative turnover that followed) effectively mangled the franchise for years to come. Why is Disassembled so disliked? Because it was repeating the worst mistake in franchise history - only Disassembled did it far more incompetently, and on a much larger scale. I agree, it's just that it irks me when people say Disassembled 'ruined' the Avengers, when all it was was a bad rip off of an old story. I think Hickman has done far more harm than Bendis. He made Namor out and out evil. He's made Dr. Strange a killer. He's add a plethora of generic overpowered characters that make several of the others useless. And don't get me started on Tony Stark. I've been loving Hickmans Avengers since it started... |
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Post by dupersuper on Jan 8, 2015 4:57:38 GMT -5
I will go much stronger - "Spider-man is a loner" is an inherently dumb argument. I know Stan Lee made it - still dumb. Spider-man is, in fact, a social construct. When Spider-man is by himself he's Peter Parker. For proof, allow me to site every Spider-man comic with thought baloons ever published. The Spider-man elements of his personality only emerge when he's (A) in costume, and (B) in a social setting, either amont civilians, friends, or enemies. So Spider-man should always have been in the Avengers, it was a mistake not to put Spider-man in the Avengers in the first place, and I will always be happy that Bendis et. al. fixed this grevious over-sight. (Except for Wolverine, I really like the original New Avengers line-up.) That would be my favorite part of New Avengers, Bendis tried to JLA the team up a little. He didn't go far enough, but it's the thought that counts. I agree, it was a mistake that Spidey was never in the Avengers in the first place. I just wish Sony and Disney had got together so he could have been in the movie team. If Batman can be in the JL, Outsiders and Batman Inc., Wolverine can be on 6 X-teams at once...even Phantom Stranger has been an unofficial JLer...I don't see why so many get bent out of shape that Marvel put their flagship hero on their flagship team. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 8, 2015 7:39:23 GMT -5
For me, it was that for many, many, years, Spidey was not an Avenger on purpose, it was part of his character, then they changed it without explanation.
I've never understood how anyone can like Hickman, he has no idea about the characters he's writing, and his plots are all overblown and overly complex. I can find the good in alot of bad writing, but not his... I find his Avengers the least readable comics I've ever seen.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 9:25:22 GMT -5
I haven't been that enthused with his Avengers run - he has a massive over-arching plan, which is a plus point, but it seems to be taking an age to get anywhere.
His F4 run, on the other hand, was probably the first run since Byrne's that I've read and enjoyed. He really expanded their world & developed the characters (pretty much all of which has been ignored in the abysmal follow-ups)
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Post by The Captain on Jan 8, 2015 9:36:43 GMT -5
I agree, it's just that it irks me when people say Disassembled 'ruined' the Avengers, when all it was was a bad rip off of an old story. I think Hickman has done far more harm than Bendis. He made Namor out and out evil. He's made Dr. Strange a killer. He's add a plethora of generic overpowered characters that make several of the others useless. And don't get me started on Tony Stark. I've been loving Hickmans Avengers since it started... I tried, but I couldn't get into it, which was disappointing because I thought his F4 run was excellent. Everything was just so sloooooooooooooow in getting around to anything happening (mind you, I only read New Avengers and Mighty Avengers), but I felt like it was a chore to read through it every month when I knew I would be no further along in the story by the end of the book. |
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Post by Dizzy D on Jan 8, 2015 10:14:31 GMT -5
I'm reading Hickman's New and regular Avengers in trade and enjoying both series so far. Definitely more than most Avengers runs (apart from Busiek's run).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 10:24:31 GMT -5
I'm reading Hickman's New and regular Avengers in trade and enjoying both series so far. Definitely more than most Avengers runs I'd agree with that - it is better than most Avengers runs, probably because it's all building to a massive conclusion or two. But, I think it would work better read in big chunks than month by month, and it would be a lot better without all the other twenty-'leven Avengers books going on at the some time that I'm trying to integrate in my head into a coherent whole. |
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Post by badwolf on Jan 8, 2015 10:28:19 GMT -5
My main problem with Wolverine being an Avenger is not that he appears too often but that his methods and philosophy don't fit with what the Avengers are about. Cap once stated that he could never be an Avenger. I know it was a long time ago, and this is a whole new team, but then you have to wonder, is this really the Avengers at all?
As far as Spider-Man goes, he's social and he's done team-ups, but is he really a team player? I'm not sure.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 8, 2015 10:29:36 GMT -5
The thing is, Hickman doesn't stick the landing.... from what I read of Infinity (which wasn't much, I'll admit) it was an extreme cop out ending.... and the FF stuff, while he did do some good character work on the Future Foundation people, the story was lacking, IMO. I think he'd do alot better with a blank slate than with existing characters (which is probably why he gravitates towards his own creations, or the obscure.)... though, to be honest, I couldn't get into East of West either... I gave it like 5 issues and nothing happened.
At the risk of sounding like an Old Crumudgeon, back in the day they could write a good story with a beginning, middle, and end in 12 pages. Now it takes 150 pages, and we rarely get a solid ending, but rather the lead-in to the next massive event.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 8, 2015 10:31:09 GMT -5
My main problem with Wolverine being an Avenger is not that he appears too often but that his methods and philosophy don't fit with what the Avengers are about. Cap once stated that he could never be an Avenger. I know it was a long time ago, and this is a whole new team, but then you have to wonder, is this really the Avengers at all? As far as Spider-Man goes, he's social and he's done team-ups, but is he really a team player? I'm not sure. Exactly! I don't have a problem with there being a team with Wolverine and Spidey on it, but it shouldn't have been the Avengers... New or otherwise... UNLESS that was going to be a main plot point. Heck, that would have made Civil War more interesting if they'd talked about that! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 10:39:21 GMT -5
My main problem with Wolverine being an Avenger is not that he appears too often but that his methods and philosophy don't fit with what the Avengers are about. Cap once stated that he could never be an Avenger. I know it was a long time ago, and this is a whole new team, but then you have to wonder, is this really the Avengers at all? As far as Spider-Man goes, he's social and he's done team-ups, but is he really a team player? I'm not sure. Exactly! I don't have a problem with there being a team with Wolverine and Spidey on it, but it shouldn't have been the Avengers... New or otherwise... UNLESS that was going to be a main plot point. Heck, that would have made Civil War more interesting if they'd talked about that! But ... it was covered in the series. Cap did object to him, but Iron Man wanted him in precisely because he would cross lines they wouldn't go over, in case of another Scarlet Witch-type runaway power. Whether you agree or not, I think the in-story logic was reasonable, and Iron Man's pragmatic view was reasonably consistent with his "cover all the options" futurist planner character. |
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Post by badwolf on Jan 8, 2015 10:47:28 GMT -5
That's true, I forgot about that.
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Post by Dizzy D on Jan 8, 2015 10:48:38 GMT -5
My main problem with Wolverine being an Avenger is not that he appears too often but that his methods and philosophy don't fit with what the Avengers are about. Cap once stated that he could never be an Avenger. I know it was a long time ago, and this is a whole new team, but then you have to wonder, is this really the Avengers at all? As far as Spider-Man goes, he's social and he's done team-ups, but is he really a team player? I'm not sure. Spider-Man is no worse a teamplayer than Hulk, Quicksilver, USAgent or many other wildcard members they had over the years. And Wolverine's methods and philosophy are also not that different from many longtime Avengers. The reasons why some people could join and some people could not always seemed arbitrary to me. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,202 
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Post by Confessor on Jan 8, 2015 10:50:34 GMT -5
His F4 run, on the other hand, was probably the first run since Byrne's that I've read and enjoyed. He really expanded their world & developed the characters (pretty much all of which has been ignored in the abysmal follow-ups) See, I liked his FF run to begin with, but after following it for a year, I realised that he didn't really know what he was doing. I think Hickman is a writer that throws everything at a story and sees what sticks, but a lot of the sub-plots he introduced in FF were going nowhere. It's weird, but I think superficially he comes across as a good writer, but when you actually stop to think about it, he's not very good at all. |
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