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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 16:51:12 GMT -5
Are they telling enjoyable stories? Because that's all I really care about. Some are... I liked Remender's Uncanny Avengers (though many don't). Hickman's stuff is atrocious. Bendis has his moment on the X-Books, but there's not enough story for my $3.99, IMO. I liked Thor before they did the gimmicky girl Thor thing... my patience there is running pretty thin. Overall, I think the line as a whole is not as good for the lack of having a cohesive universe. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 16:53:36 GMT -5
A small quibble: Other than Hercules (who had been healed by Prometheus in "Assault on Olympus" but remained in Olympus to convelesce), those weren't Roger Stern's comics, and he's disavowed any involvement he had with them. (Mostly plotting the "Heavy Metal" arc.) Walt Simonson was the writer of most of those issues, but it was Mark Gruenwald pushing those Avengers out behind the scenes. Eventually Walt would leave, too, because he also wasn't allowed to tell the stories he wanted to, and had to deal with a constantly shifting line-up. The difference that I see after the two events in question: Hercules: Alive Captain Marvel: Alive Black Knight: Alive Dr. Druid: Alive She-Hulk: Alive Hawkeye: Dead Vision: Dead Ant-Man: Dead Jack of Hearts: Dead Scarlet Witch: Ruined for several years Granted many have eventually come back, but it doesn't change what he did or how he did it. You are correct, of course, about Stern... it's just easy to refer to that period as his. As far as dead vs. alive, that's more a sign of the times... Hawkeye, Vision and Ant-Man all came back pretty quickly... more quickly that Dr. Druid or Monica Rambeau did, certainly. I THINK Jack of Hearts did, too, but I'm not certain on that. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 16:54:55 GMT -5
Fables Fables Fables The first 75 issues are perfect. The next 75 are still terrific. I'm not sure I'd describe the Great Fables Crossover, or the Mr. Dark story, as 'Terrific', (More 'lousy' and 'passable'), but I agree the 1st 75 issues were perfect  |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 16:59:37 GMT -5
I would argue that "they have done really sucky stories like this before" is not a great defense. Disassembled is not terribly different than Simonson's dismantling of the team in #291-297 - though of course Simonson is a vastly superior writer - but there's a very good reason why most Avengers fans, including myself and most of the others on these boards, consider the end of the golden age of Avengers comics to be #300. Because that Simonson storyline and its aftermath (both in terms of the stories and the creative turnover that followed) effectively mangled the franchise for years to come. Why is Disassembled so disliked? Because it was repeating the worst mistake in franchise history - only Disassembled did it far more incompetently, and on a much larger scale. I agree, it's just that it irks me when people say Disassembled 'ruined' the Avengers, when all it was was a bad rip off of an old story. I think Hickman has done far more harm than Bendis. He made Namor out and out evil. He's made Dr. Strange a killer. He's add a plethora of generic overpowered characters that make several of the others useless. And don't get me started on Tony Stark. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jan 7, 2015 17:01:26 GMT -5
It's pretty much impossible to make Marvel continuity line up now in the way that used to be possible in the 70s - every character is appearing in multiple books every month. You can't even make the books within a particular franchise (eg Avengers) line up without a lot of squinting and wishful thinking. You can either accept a hand-wave and accept that the stories all are taking place in the same universe but are a massive jigsaw puzzle that sort of fits together, or you take the way out that Slott introduced in She-Hulk with other dimensional versions of the same characters co-inhabiting 616 Earth (maybe this is the new improved Sacred Wars idea - to permanently have 2 or 3 of each characters available), but never mention it again after introducing the idea I think the flaw of continuity is trying to maintain continuity. If publishers and readers can abandon that concept then what we get are one story after another, just like Legends of the Dark Knight. They may not all be perfect or good to every reader every single time, but at least we're not waving our hands in the air. :-) |
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Post by paulie on Jan 7, 2015 18:01:00 GMT -5
Fables Fables Fables The first 75 issues are perfect. The next 75 are still terrific. I'm not sure I'd describe the Great Fables Crossover, or the Mr. Dark story, as 'Terrific', (More 'lousy' and 'passable'), but I agree the 1st 75 issues were perfect I liked Mr. Dark. I though he was as good a follow up menace as we could have hoped for. The freaking Bogeyman! If I was Cei-U I'd summon something... instead I'll just have to disagree! |
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 7, 2015 19:48:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure that's that different from the end of the Roger Stern run... Herucles was in the hospital in a coma, Captain Marvel de-powered, Black Knight cursed and on death's door, Dr. Druid evil, and She-Hulk totally disillusioned. I would argue that "they have done really sucky stories like this before" is not a great defense. Disassembled is not terribly different than Simonson's dismantling of the team in #291-297 - though of course Simonson is a vastly superior writer - but there's a very good reason why most Avengers fans, including myself and most of the others on these boards, consider the end of the golden age of Avengers comics to be #300. Because that Simonson storyline and its aftermath (both in terms of the stories and the creative turnover that followed) effectively mangled the franchise for years to come. Why is Disassembled so disliked? Because it was repeating the worst mistake in franchise history - only Disassembled did it far more incompetently, and on a much larger scale. Even worse, it made Avengers into a successful franchise. New, Mighty, Young, Secret, Dark etc. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 19:54:12 GMT -5
I would argue that "they have done really sucky stories like this before" is not a great defense. Disassembled is not terribly different than Simonson's dismantling of the team in #291-297 - though of course Simonson is a vastly superior writer - but there's a very good reason why most Avengers fans, including myself and most of the others on these boards, consider the end of the golden age of Avengers comics to be #300. Because that Simonson storyline and its aftermath (both in terms of the stories and the creative turnover that followed) effectively mangled the franchise for years to come. Why is Disassembled so disliked? Because it was repeating the worst mistake in franchise history - only Disassembled did it far more incompetently, and on a much larger scale. Even worse, it made Avengers into a successful franchise. New, Mighty, Young, Secret, Dark etc. That's more marketing than anything... in another era, Mighty was West Coast and Secret was Nick Fury and Shield. I thought Young Avengers was a good add, and wasn't anything other books didn't get.. the X-Books have always had a teen book, the FF had one, etc. Dark Avengers was a story-driven temporary thing. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 19:56:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd describe the Great Fables Crossover, or the Mr. Dark story, as 'Terrific', (More 'lousy' and 'passable'), but I agree the 1st 75 issues were perfect I liked Mr. Dark. I though he was as good a follow up menace as we could have hoped for. The freaking Bogeyman! If I was Cei-U I'd summon something... instead I'll just have to disagree! LOL. He was OK, but he was just too...much. Too over the top. Also, it was frustrating how stupid the characters were at points.. then the ending... just not my favorite arc. Plus, I HATE Nurse Spratt as a bad guy... too silly. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 7, 2015 19:58:09 GMT -5
Mostly Spiderman and Wolverine... both characters whose main character point is that they're loners, where the main members. Every writer added a character or three of their own, but all the others at least kept around some of the long time 'classic' characters.. Bendis didn't really. I guess Tony STark was still around, but he was so off character-wise, he doesn't count. Wolverine has solidly been in team books since 1975! He's the least lonely loner on the face of the earth! Spider-Man, I'll give you to some extent - he's not generally a team characters, except... he's had an unending series of "team-ups" with just about everyone on earth! He's also occasionally been a member of the F4, though not generally for long I will go much stronger - "Spider-man is a loner" is an inherently dumb argument. I know Stan Lee made it - still dumb. Spider-man is, in fact, a social construct. When Spider-man is by himself he's Peter Parker. For proof, allow me to site every Spider-man comic with thought baloons ever published. The Spider-man elements of his personality only emerge when he's (A) in costume, and (B) in a social setting, either amont civilians, friends, or enemies. So Spider-man should always have been in the Avengers, it was a mistake not to put Spider-man in the Avengers in the first place, and I will always be happy that Bendis et. al. fixed this grevious over-sight. (Except for Wolverine, I really like the original New Avengers line-up.) |
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 7, 2015 19:58:24 GMT -5
My favorites from 2004
DC: The New Frontier
Waid's Fantastic Four, Superman: Birthright, Legion of Super-Heroes and Empire
Superman: Secret Identity
Invincible
The Pulse
Superman/ Batman
Teen Titans Gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
John's JSA, Flash, Teen Titans and Green Lantern: Rebirth
DC Comics Presents event
Astro City: Supersonic Special
Batman Adventures
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 20:04:23 GMT -5
Wolverine has solidly been in team books since 1975! He's the least lonely loner on the face of the earth! Spider-Man, I'll give you to some extent - he's not generally a team characters, except... he's had an unending series of "team-ups" with just about everyone on earth! He's also occasionally been a member of the F4, though not generally for long I will go much stronger - "Spider-man is a loner" is an inherently dumb argument. I know Stan Lee made it - still dumb. Spider-man is, in fact, a social construct. When Spider-man is by himself he's Peter Parker. For proof, allow me to site every Spider-man comic with thought baloons ever published. The Spider-man elements of his personality only emerge when he's (A) in costume, and (B) in a social setting, either amont civilians, friends, or enemies. So Spider-man should always have been in the Avengers, it was a mistake not to put Spider-man in the Avengers in the first place, and I will always be happy that Bendis et. al. fixed this grevious over-sight. (Except for Wolverine, I really like the original New Avengers line-up.) It's not that, it's that they had Spidey try to join... twice... and he failed... twice. Just showing up and being there shouldn't have been a thing without addressing that. |
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 7, 2015 20:04:41 GMT -5
Wolverine has solidly been in team books since 1975! He's the least lonely loner on the face of the earth! Spider-Man, I'll give you to some extent - he's not generally a team characters, except... he's had an unending series of "team-ups" with just about everyone on earth! He's also occasionally been a member of the F4, though not generally for long I will go much stronger - "Spider-man is a loner" is an inherently dumb argument. I know Stan Lee made it - still dumb. Spider-man is, in fact, a social construct. When Spider-man is by himself he's Peter Parker. For proof, allow me to site every Spider-man comic with thought baloons ever published. The Spider-man elements of his personality only emerge when he's (A) in costume, and (B) in a social setting, either amont civilians, friends, or enemies. So Spider-man should always have been in the Avengers, it was a mistake not to put Spider-man in the Avengers in the first place, and I will always be happy that Bendis et. al. fixed this grevious over-sight. (Except for Wolverine, I really like the original New Avengers line-up.) That would be my favorite part of New Avengers, Bendis tried to JLA the team up a little. He didn't go far enough, but it's the thought that counts. I agree, it was a mistake that Spidey was never in the Avengers in the first place. I just wish Sony and Disney had got together so he could have been in the movie team. |
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Post by Pharozonk on Jan 7, 2015 20:06:07 GMT -5
The scary thing is that in 2021 we will have to consider the Nu52 and Marvel NOW! as classics.  |
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 7, 2015 20:07:52 GMT -5
Anyone have any hate to toss at War Games, Identity Crisis and Sins of the Past? We can't let Avengers Disassembled have all the fun.  |
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