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Post by spoon on Jan 16, 2015 22:20:51 GMT -5
that drawing is a declaration of war to some people. anyone who thinks its "just a drawing" or merely "offensive" has completely missed the point of how its viewed amongst some people. No, for me, I want extremists to be defeated (and not have their demands satisfied) precisely because their viewpoint is very familiar. People who view violence as a fair responses to these cartoons are pretty much bigots. They view Muslims as superior, so they think things like religious insults and apostasy merit death. Folks that do evil don't usually clink wine glasses together, while toasting "To evil", and then cackling maniacally. Rather, they often rationalize themselves as victims. White supremacist often portray themselves trying to defend white people from subjugation or extinction. Right-wing Christians often portray Christians as a small and oppressed group in the U.S., despite being the overwhelming majority. They will harass atheists and members of minority religions who dare to complain about efforts to put proselytizing into public schools. Honor killers often portray themselves as defenders of the family honor from female relatives who did evil. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 16, 2015 22:36:24 GMT -5
that drawing is a declaration of war to some people. anyone who thinks its "just a drawing" or merely "offensive" has completely missed the point of how its viewed amongst some people. No, for me, I want extremists to be defeated (and not have their demands satisfied) precisely because their viewpoint is very familiar. People who view violence as a fair responses to these cartoons are pretty much bigots. They view Muslims as superior, so they think things like religious insults and apostasy merit death. Folks that do evil don't usually clink wine glasses together, while toasting "To evil", and then cackling maniacally. Rather, they often rationalize themselves as victims. White supremacist often portray themselves trying to defend white people from subjugation or extinction. Right-wing Christians often portray Christians as a small and oppressed group in the U.S., despite being the overwhelming majority. They will harass atheists and members of minority religions who dare to complain about efforts to put proselytizing into public schools. Honor killers often portray themselves as defenders of the family honor from female relatives who did evil. This is one of the reasons why placing blame on the victims here makes me scratch my head. I mean, when people die in school shootings we don't rationalize with the killer and say, "They should have known better than to make fun of him in gym class." or "He brought it on himself by buying that new sports car, he should have known people in that neighborhood would kill for that." do we? No, we understand that murder goes against the social contract that is the foundation of civilization and condemn the killer and mourn the dead. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jan 16, 2015 22:58:59 GMT -5
Every thug,thief,wife-beater or murderer will give you a justification for their actions."He dis-respected me", "They looked at me funny". Sorry, I don't care about your sob stories.The actions of these particular terrorists will hopefully grant them an eternal hell. All they wound up doing was continuing the cycle of hate and violence
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ironchimp
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Post by ironchimp on Jan 17, 2015 12:12:14 GMT -5
that drawing is a declaration of war to some people. anyone who thinks its "just a drawing" or merely "offensive" has completely missed the point of how its viewed amongst some people. No, for me, I want extremists to be defeated (and not have their demands satisfied) precisely because their viewpoint is very familiar. People who view violence as a fair responses to these cartoons are pretty much bigots. They view Muslims as superior, so they think things like religious insults and apostasy merit death. Folks that do evil don't usually clink wine glasses together, while toasting "To evil", and then cackling maniacally. Rather, they often rationalize themselves as victims. White supremacist often portray themselves trying to defend white people from subjugation or extinction. Right-wing Christians often portray Christians as a small and oppressed group in the U.S., despite being the overwhelming majority. They will harass atheists and members of minority religions who dare to complain about efforts to put proselytizing into public schools. Honor killers often portray themselves as defenders of the family honor from female relatives who did evil. for many people its the USA / Britain / Spain who are the extremists. Its a born again Christian and a closet catholic enacting genocide. Kind of looked like a holy war to many people. |
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Post by ironchimp on Jan 17, 2015 12:25:21 GMT -5
No, for me, I want extremists to be defeated (and not have their demands satisfied) precisely because their viewpoint is very familiar. People who view violence as a fair responses to these cartoons are pretty much bigots. They view Muslims as superior, so they think things like religious insults and apostasy merit death. Folks that do evil don't usually clink wine glasses together, while toasting "To evil", and then cackling maniacally. Rather, they often rationalize themselves as victims. White supremacist often portray themselves trying to defend white people from subjugation or extinction. Right-wing Christians often portray Christians as a small and oppressed group in the U.S., despite being the overwhelming majority. They will harass atheists and members of minority religions who dare to complain about efforts to put proselytizing into public schools. Honor killers often portray themselves as defenders of the family honor from female relatives who did evil. This is one of the reasons why placing blame on the victims here makes me scratch my head. I mean, when people die in school shootings we don't rationalize with the killer and say, "They should have known better than to make fun of him in gym class." or "He brought it on himself by buying that new sports car, he should have known people in that neighborhood would kill for that." do we? No, we understand that murder goes against the social contract that is the foundation of civilization and condemn the killer and mourn the dead. high school shooting isnt the same as paramilitary activity / organised terrorist campaign. History has taught us there is no winners when that happens. And policies across Europe are directly contributing to a climate where this can happen. We have murders (on all sides) walking free here, because some times its better to forego justice for peace. Post the "troubles" people on all sides who had lost friends and family had to swallow forgoing justice for the greater good. That's a real warrior. |
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Post by ironchimp on Jan 17, 2015 12:27:26 GMT -5
Every thug,thief,wife-beater or murderer will give you a justification for their actions."He dis-respected me", "They looked at me funny". Sorry, I don't care about your sob stories.The actions of these particular terrorists will hopefully grant them an eternal hell. All they wound up doing was continuing the cycle of hate and violence thats sob stories that include genocide by the way. They are still trying to work out who all those people are in mass graves in the balkans. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 17, 2015 12:31:46 GMT -5
This is one of the reasons why placing blame on the victims here makes me scratch my head. I mean, when people die in school shootings we don't rationalize with the killer and say, "They should have known better than to make fun of him in gym class." or "He brought it on himself by buying that new sports car, he should have known people in that neighborhood would kill for that." do we? No, we understand that murder goes against the social contract that is the foundation of civilization and condemn the killer and mourn the dead. high school shooting isnt the same as paramilitary activity / organised terrorist campaign. History has taught us there is no winners when that happens. And policies across Europe are directly contributing to a climate where this can happen. We have murders (on all sides) walking free here, because some times its better to forego justice for peace. Post the "troubles" people on all sides who had lost friends and family had to swallow forgoing justice for the greater good. That's a real warrior. They are crimes committed by barbarians, pure and simple and we don't rationalize with other types of barbarians so I don't see why we should here and I have yet to see a good reason why we should. I mean, let's say the writers and cartoonists here didn't publish what they did. Sure, they may have been spared, but do you seriously think the people who committed these crimes would have just went quietly into the night and integrated themselves into society? No. They were looking for violence and they just happened to choose these artists and writers, it could have easily been a post office, school or other public place they attacked and they would have given the same kinds of "justifications" for their violence regardless of where they struck so appeasement would have ultimately done nothing. We could give them everything they want and they'd still be barbarians, I mean these kinds of people even kill other Muslims seemingly because they are not Muslim enough so there's little we can do that will not give them "cause" to harm us. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 17, 2015 12:53:59 GMT -5
Every thug,thief,wife-beater or murderer will give you a justification for their actions."He dis-respected me", "They looked at me funny". Sorry, I don't care about your sob stories.The actions of these particular terrorists will hopefully grant them an eternal hell. All they wound up doing was continuing the cycle of hate and violence thats sob stories that include genocide by the way. They are still trying to work out who all those people are in mass graves in the balkans. I'm having trouble seeing how being the survivor of a genocide justifies murdering cartoonists. (And the Charlie Hebdo murderers weren't the survivors of genocide anyway.) |
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Post by ironchimp on Jan 17, 2015 12:54:33 GMT -5
In America our freedom of speech does have restrictions. We can't distribute child porn, for example. We CAN distribute hate filled propaganda promoting genocide though. And personally, I wouldn't be all that upset if we lost that right. Another thing we have to remember is that we were never conquered by Nazi's, and those who were may be a little more sensitive about the matter than us. Look how sensitive America is about 9/11. Now multiply 9/11 by a thousand and imagine how America would feel about it. Not to mention, promoting hate against Muslims is also illegal in France. It just turns out that drawing Mohammad is not considered promoting hate on the same level as celebrating someone who had just murdered a dozen people. thank you Dupont - respect for that |
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Post by ironchimp on Jan 17, 2015 13:07:37 GMT -5
thats sob stories that include genocide by the way. They are still trying to work out who all those people are in mass graves in the balkans. I'm having trouble seeing how being the survivor of a genocide justifies murdering cartoonists. (And the Charlie Hebdo murderers weren't the survivors of genocide anyway.) We have balkan muslims fighting against US and UK in middle east - now you have paramilitary trained people coming back to europe. International brotherhood of muslims - crimes committed against one set is crimes committed against all sets - for some people Its symptomatic of the conditions some peoples have to live in, in Europe. I am not saying they are directly related, I am saying that's the kind of environment some people find themselves in Europe. Those environments help produce radicals. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jan 17, 2015 13:17:52 GMT -5
I'm having trouble seeing how being the survivor of a genocide justifies murdering cartoonists. (And the Charlie Hebdo murderers weren't the survivors of genocide anyway.) Those environments help produce radicals. Your excuses for their actions only empower them. This had nothing to do with genocide. It had nothing to do with the Moors invading Spain nor Alexander the Great nor Cro-Magnons wiping out the Neanderthals. Just a group of cowardly terrorists striking against innocent , unarmed civilians in a surprise attack. What manly heroes, eh? |
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Post by ironchimp on Jan 17, 2015 13:19:59 GMT -5
high school shooting isnt the same as paramilitary activity / organised terrorist campaign. History has taught us there is no winners when that happens. And policies across Europe are directly contributing to a climate where this can happen. We have murders (on all sides) walking free here, because some times its better to forego justice for peace. Post the "troubles" people on all sides who had lost friends and family had to swallow forgoing justice for the greater good. That's a real warrior. They are crimes committed by barbarians, pure and simple and we don't rationalize with other types of barbarians so I don't see why we should here and I have yet to see a good reason why we should. I mean, let's say the writers and cartoonists here didn't publish what they did. Sure, they may have been spared, but do you seriously think the people who committed these crimes would have just went quietly into the night and integrated themselves into society? No. They were looking for violence and they just happened to choose these artists and writers, it could have easily been a post office, school or other public place they attacked and they would have given the same kinds of "justifications" for their violence regardless of where they struck so appeasement would have ultimately done nothing. We could give them everything they want and they'd still be barbarians, I mean these kinds of people even kill other Muslims seemingly because they are not Muslim enough so there's little we can do that will not give them "cause" to harm us. was exactly the same argument played out during 80s Thatcher government v IRA. |
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Post by ironchimp on Jan 17, 2015 13:23:17 GMT -5
Those environments help produce radicals. Your excuses for their actions only empower them. This had nothing to do with genocide. It had nothing to do with the Moors invading Spain nor Alexander the Great nor Cro-Magnons wiping out the Neanderthals. Just a group of cowardly terrorists striking against innocent , unarmed civilians in a surprise attack. What manly heroes, eh? ANC were bombers too - guess they were just cowards too. Before Iraq 2 no violence - post Iraq 2 violence. It would seem that an ideology appeared at that point... or took root. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest look at the numbers of people who came out. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 17, 2015 13:40:22 GMT -5
Your excuses for their actions only empower them. This had nothing to do with genocide. It had nothing to do with the Moors invading Spain nor Alexander the Great nor Cro-Magnons wiping out the Neanderthals. Just a group of cowardly terrorists striking against innocent , unarmed civilians in a surprise attack. What manly heroes, eh? ANC were bombers too - guess they were just cowards too. Before Iraq 2 no violence - post Iraq 2 violence. It would seem that an ideology appeared at that point... or took root. You're kidding right? There were plenty of terrorist attacks in the 90's and in the 80's before the first Gulf war. The only real differences are that they are more widely reported thanks to the modern 24 hour news cycle and that in the time since the terrorists have gained better training(some of it from the very western powers they despise) so the attacks are now more sophisticated. |
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Post by ironchimp on Jan 17, 2015 13:43:58 GMT -5
ANC were bombers too - guess they were just cowards too. Before Iraq 2 no violence - post Iraq 2 violence. It would seem that an ideology appeared at that point... or took root. You're kidding right? There were plenty of terrorist attacks in the 90's and in the 80's before the first Gulf war. The only real differences are that they are more widely reported thanks to the modern 24 hour news cycle and that in the time since the terrorists have gained better training(some of it from the very western powers they despise) so the attacks are now more sophisticated. i mean within UK by islamic radicals. Believe me we were fully aware of terrorism in 80s and 90s in UK - it was a regular occurrence here. |
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