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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 18, 2015 1:49:14 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this a lot lately and didn't want to derail another thread after bringing it up there. Many fans and professionals, not to mention most non-fans, perceive superheroes as being kids stuff or a genre directly aimed at kids. But is it really? Without question the costumes, in a real world sense, are ridiculous and not something any superpowered being, or vigilante who's serious, would ever employ. But is this intentional symbolism and marketing conceit enough to write the genre off as being just for kids? I don't think so.
Batman is the best example for me. This is a character who was quite violent when he first appeared and this is often forgotten because most, when visualizing early Batman, seem to leap directly to the post-war era when DC started lightening up the overall tone of their adventure comics. When I think of kids characters, I think of stuff like Richie Rich, Casper, Yogi Bear, etc. Batman is a character that witnessed the brutal murder of his parents and lives in a world riddled with gangsters, violent crime and corruption. This is core subject matter aimed at 8 year olds? I'm highly skeptical. If you take away Batman's bat-motif completely, yet leave everything else intact, wouldn't he be perceived more along the lines of James Bond? I think Bond is an excellent example of a human superhero, every bit as implausible as Batman, who gets a pass because he wears a tuxedo and his femme fatales don't wear leather cat-suits. There's really only a superficial difference here.
Now I don't think for a minute that even Batman is a sophisticated adult concept -- this aint James Joyce -- but I think he, and virtually all other superheroes, clearly inhabit the realm of all-ages; it's a nebulous middle-ground that many critics can't seem to accept or fully grasp, which has always baffled me a bit. It does seem simpleminded to me for otherwise intelligent people to be so bothered by the costumes that they miss the fact that most superhero comics, from the Bronze Age till now certainly, have been operating on a more sophisticated level than they're given credit for. At their core, they're adventure stories with the toned down trappings of adult problems combined with the flash and bright colors that appeal to kids.
All that said, I'm firmly against the idea that superheros work as a purely "adult" level. For instance, I disliked the use of Martian Manhunter in Sandman and felt it took me out of a comic that's tone was clearly aiming at a more sophisticated, less general, readership. This is the gist of why I despise the violence found in most Marvel and DC books. This is when superheroes become ridiculous to me. (Watchmen and DKR's being the exceptions because, well, they're masterpieces, and because they made valid artistic statements. That said, as both stories clearly illustrate, going down the road of hyper-violence and grittiness with superheroes is ultimately a dead end.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2015 5:04:08 GMT -5
I think super heroes are best suited for children.
I think super heroes and super hero comics that had been targeted at children for half a century should still be kid friendly.
But I think there is plenty of room for adult market super heroes. I think they should be under a different imprint, and feature different intellectual property though.
For example. I have a problem with that Teen Titans character being a little girl in cartoons for little girls, and then basically being a blow up doll in a thong in the comics. It's unnecessarily confusing and just asking for trouble. Disney would NEVER allow their popular children's properties be marketed in that way. Because it would be stupid.
What I DON'T have a problem with is a new intellectual property under a new imprint (as in not having regular adventures with the stars of Saturday Morning cartoons), or possible a new publisher, being marketed toward adults. No problem with Glory or Darkchylde or Spawn or whatever.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jan 18, 2015 11:31:14 GMT -5
My two cents ... ?
I started reading at 17 in the 90s. I've stayed regularly purchasing since 2011 for financial concerns. I've always had my collection available to my boys (now 11and 8) and outside of questioning me about characters and stuff have really never shown interest in my comics. They have plenty of exposure to the characters via TV shows ( Ultimate Spider-Man, Batman TAS and B&tB and recent movies) but seem to favor that form over the comic. And my 11 year old reads books and novels.
What I can say for comics in general, for me anyway, and particularly in the 90's when I started is exactly what Reptarious said in the other thread ... Power fantasy. And sexy women. I never had much exposure to anything like that. It was the bible and church publications almost non stop. Before comics all my folks allowed was me to have a Nintendo Power subscription outside of school and church reading material. I think that's why now, after 20 years of reading the core of what the whole superhero comic is built upon no longer appeals to me. It's like I got it out of my system. I'm a grown man, husband and father and I don't need that fantasy anymore.
And it's not that I don't like heroes and conflict, I enjoy those types movies (big Jason Statham fan and he plays that role quite often) and books (Thomas Harris, Mario Acevedo, even Bukowski and Miller to a degree) but the execution of comic characters and super powers seem ridiculous and impossible in the real world no matter how much recent movies try. If you play the material as it is intended Batman B&tB it's fine, and fun. But you try to play it opposite you get Avengers and DKR both proof to me these stories are impossible to be taken seriously.
So I guess my answer is they're aimed at whoever needs what they offer, just like anything addictive.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2015 21:13:40 GMT -5
To me it's all-ages! ... If you love adventure, exciting moments, colorful artwork, fantasy, and bits of everything under the Sun - To me, it's make any adult a kid again!
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 18, 2015 21:50:04 GMT -5
To me it's all-ages! ... If you love adventure, exciting moments, colorful artwork, fantasy, and bits of everything under the Sun - To me, it's make any adult a kid again! That's my feeling as well, they're adventure stories and there's something there for nearly everyone.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Jan 18, 2015 22:02:10 GMT -5
I think the only way to judge this is to judge the concept, because even well established characters like Batman and Spider-Man are simple concepts that have been successfully rebuilt in different ways over the past 50-75 years. To say that Batman is for kids or adults is silly, because there is no one Batman. A lot of Batman comics have been aimed at children and a lot of them have been aimed at adults. So the only thing that makes sense to me is to determine whether or not the basic concept of a superhero is for children. Is a man or woman dressing up in a fancy costume and fighting crime something suited only for children, and all of those adults who like it are manchildren? I think the idea is preposterous. So that settles that.
What confuses me is that when people talk about this the demographics are usually split between kids under 12 and adults over 21. John Byrne is especially bad about this, saying modern comics only appeal to nerds in their 30s and 40s. Did he forget that teenagers exist?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 18, 2015 22:13:08 GMT -5
I think they started as something for kids... then as those kids grew up, so did the stories.... alot like Cartoons, actually.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Jan 18, 2015 22:34:00 GMT -5
I think they started as something for kids... then as those kids grew up, so did the stories.... alot like Cartoons, actually. Cartoons tend to go in long cycles where they flip between "fun for everybody" and "extruded cartoon product with the sole purpose of selling toys to children." What happens is people who grow up watching the former, end up having to produce the latter and eventually reaching a point in their career where they can produce the former. Thats what the big boom in the early 90s was all about, guys who had grown up with awesome Looney Tunes had worked on crappy Filmation and wanted to make cartoons that were actually good. Since then it's swung back towards being crappy toy commercials again.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Jan 18, 2015 22:34:12 GMT -5
I think they started as something for kids... then as those kids grew up, so did the stories.... alot like Cartoons, actually. Cartoons tend to go in long cycles where they flip between "fun for everybody" and "extruded cartoon product with the sole purpose of selling toys to children." What happens is people who grow up watching the former, end up having to produce the latter and eventually reaching a point in their career where they can produce the former. Thats what the big boom in the early 90s was all about, guys who had grown up with awesome Looney Tunes had worked on crappy Filmation and wanted to make cartoons that were actually good. Since then it's swung back towards being crappy toy commercials again.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 19, 2015 1:11:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I was trying to get at whether or not the concept of superheroes was inherently juvenile/kid stuff or not. I think the questions runs deeper and we have to ask whether or not fantasy of all kinds is inherently juvenile. It's interesting that characters like James Bond and Conan, simply because they feature a lot of sexiness and violence, rarely if ever get painted with the juvenile brush, when they share many traits with superheroes. I do agree that the costumed secret identity is probably the first thing that springs up to undermine the concepts validity, but the concept of adults undertaking vigilante careers can't be said to do so for the simple fact that vigilantes have exist and still do to a point.
What's interested me for awhile is how the presence of superheroes warps the way the world works in the DC and Marvel universe. Even in the more gritty and "realistic" takes, little is ever said as to why Commissioner Gordon would willingly and openly work with Batman and why the local government ultimately sanctions this behavior. Now, technically, I'm assuming that the United States in the DC universe has the same laws that we do, so the only possible explanation (Outside of the real world answer that it's a conceit invented to favor the desired setup.) is that the psychology of the people that inhabit the Earth's of these universes is different from ours. My point in all this is that I feel that if you can look at it like that, and accept it, then the ridiculousness of costumed superheroes is at the very least muted. At the end of the day I find the better superhero stories fun, and often amusing, so I don't really care if someone finds them so contemptible that it forces a sneer. For me, presentation is key. I never look at Neal Adams Batman and think "God, that guy looks ridiculous."
I think the fact that the colorful costumes bugs people has a lot to do with our real world methodology in terms of dress. The norm seems to be, particularly in government organizations and big business, to appear uniform and to not stand out from the crowd. Hell, even close buddy groups, male and female, often wind up looking the same and dressing the same. I think ostentatious costumes touch a nerve on a deeper level than "That's just stupid looking." Sure, many of them ARE stupid looking, but you catch my drift I hope.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Jan 19, 2015 2:13:49 GMT -5
My step-grandfather is one of those guys who believes all fantasy is for children. Not just wizards and laser guns and Superman, everything that couldn't happen in reality. Of course, that just made showing him my Batman Chronicles Vol 1 and seeing a big nostalgic smile spread over his face in spite of himself even more enjoyable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2015 3:19:35 GMT -5
My step-grandfather is one of those guys who believes all fantasy is for children. Not just wizards and laser guns and Superman, everything that couldn't happen in reality. Of course, that just made showing him my Batman Chronicles Vol 1 and seeing a big nostalgic smile spread over his face in spite of himself even more enjoyable. My grandpa is the same. I tried to get him to watch Game Of Thrones and he said "Dragons and zombies? No." Then I tried to get him to watch Breaking Bad and he said "Why would I watch a show about a bad guy?" What does he watch on TV? People building cars on the Speed channel. Or car races. Or golf.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Jan 19, 2015 5:29:50 GMT -5
My step-grandfather is one of those guys who believes all fantasy is for children. Not just wizards and laser guns and Superman, everything that couldn't happen in reality. Of course, that just made showing him my Batman Chronicles Vol 1 and seeing a big nostalgic smile spread over his face in spite of himself even more enjoyable. My grandpa is the same. I tried to get him to watch Game Of Thrones and he said "Dragons and zombies? No." Then I tried to get him to watch Breaking Bad and he said "Why would I watch a show about a bad guy?" What does he watch on TV? People building cars on the Speed channel. Or car races. Or golf. Mine only watches the news, documentaries and Turner Classic Movies.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jan 19, 2015 8:02:50 GMT -5
My step-grandfather is one of those guys who believes all fantasy is for children. Not just wizards and laser guns and Superman, everything that couldn't happen in reality. Of course, that just made showing him my Batman Chronicles Vol 1 and seeing a big nostalgic smile spread over his face in spite of himself even more enjoyable. I'm fascinated by people who seem to be completely devoid of imagination. My own grandfather would fit that bill. He dislikes fiction of all kinds, even reality based fiction, and seems to only enjoy musical variety shows and the news. I suppose if you grow up hard, and poor, you don't have much of an opportunity to develop an imagination. Then again, I've met plenty of people around my age who had the same exposure to comics, books, movies, etc., and never developed an imagination or an interest in fantasy. I can certainly see how an obsession with fantasy can stunt a person, but to not appreciate it or understand it at all is just...sad.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 19, 2015 8:45:27 GMT -5
I think they started as something for kids... then as those kids grew up, so did the stories.... alot like Cartoons, actually. Cartoons tend to go in long cycles where they flip between "fun for everybody" and "extruded cartoon product with the sole purpose of selling toys to children." What happens is people who grow up watching the former, end up having to produce the latter and eventually reaching a point in their career where they can produce the former. Thats what the big boom in the early 90s was all about, guys who had grown up with awesome Looney Tunes had worked on crappy Filmation and wanted to make cartoons that were actually good. Since then it's swung back towards being crappy toy commercials again. I don't think that's true... you have Family Guy, American Dad, Bob's Burgers, the Simpsons, Archer, all of Adult Swim, etc... all for adults. There are a few comics out there made to sell toys, yes (or card games), but they are in the minority. I'd argue more of the cartoons right now are out there to promote movie properties (TMNT, Star Wars, Marvel, etc) rather than sell toys. I mean, sure, there are toys, but I don't think they're the focus like they were in the 90s... when you had GI Joe, Transformers, Gobots, Strawberry Shortcake, Care Bears...
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