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Post by coke & comics on Feb 27, 2016 20:02:43 GMT -5
I'm working through a reread of Sandman, just finished World's End.
My reading so far has reaffirmed some things I already believed, that Brief Lives is perhaps the best story arc of its format in the history of the medium and that Midusmmer Night's Dream and Ramadan are two of the greatest single-issue stories ever told.
I approach Kindly Ones with a bit of trepidation. It collects the climactic story arc of the series and I know it's beloved by many.
But I have never gotten into it. It's perhaps my least favorite part of the series, though I also never learned to appreciate the story Facade.
Before I get started on it, I'd be curious to hear thoughts from those who love it. Things I should be watching out for, paying closer attention to, that might help me better appreciate this book.
Generally speaking, I find it to be overly plotted. It takes 13 issues to go where we know we are going. He foreshadowed it throughout the series, starting with the second issue, making it finally crystal clear what would happen at the end of issue 49. And finally ramming it down our throats with the ending of issue 56, just in case we'd missed the whole point of Brief Lives. Yet now what should be the inevitable tragedy of our character instead seems like the end of a complicated set of machinations by an assortment of characters from Loki to Puck to Thessaly to Lyta Hall, The Fury.
That's my remembered objection from previous readings of the story.
It's a book I have definitely only read when consciously reading through the whole series, where many of the others I have just picked up to read on their own over the years, sometimes picking out single collections or single issues.
Anyways, thoughts welcome. I'll be starting it soon.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Feb 27, 2016 20:31:58 GMT -5
The secret origin behind Neil Gaiman's Sandman
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Post by Prince Hal on Feb 28, 2016 17:42:51 GMT -5
Somehow missed this thread. I don't feel really qualified to comment much on the entire series, though I recall reading the first dozen or 15 issues and trying hard to get into it. I recognized the scope of Gaiman’s ambition, his love for the concept of "story" and for old DC characters. (The story of the Element Girl lingers as one of the memorable ones.) I didn't stick with it, though, and have always thought that I should give it another try, especially since it's so readily available in collections at most nearby libraries.
However, and it's a big however, I have to agree with the praise that coke and comics has lavished on "A Midsummer Night's Dream," which is one of my favorite single issue-stories ever. I'm curious, ish, as to why it didn't work for you; not trying to convert you, just wondering why it didn't grab you.
For me -- and I know I've written about my admiration for this story before, perhaps in one of the Christmas events -- the story does so much so admirably: illustrates a truly fantastic (in the original sense of the word) realm of Faerie that properly shows how it was imagined centuries ago; tells the story of one of the last ventures of its residents into our world; reveals the specific challenges of life for an actor and/or playwright, or for that matter, for any artist -- then and now; beautifully interweaves the conceit that the "real" faeries are the prototypes of Shakespeare's complete with the faeries’ running commentary on the characters; plays splendid tribute to Shakespeare’s language and artfully uses it to comment on what is really the most important part of the story: the devastating sadness young Hamnet Shakespeare feels because of his egotistical, prideful father’s blindness to his plight.
Gaiman’s final lines, wedded so nicely with Vess’s panels, achieve a poignancy almost never seen in comics, which – and this is not a knock – rarely rise above melodrama. (It’s like comparing the work of Sondheim to that of Leslie Bricusse.)
The feeling of loss, of chances missed, of a woeful price paid for foolishness, remind us of similar achingly beautiful moments in Shakespeare, most obviously Act Five of King Lear.
It haunts me still.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Feb 28, 2016 17:58:03 GMT -5
However, and it's a big however, I have to agree with the praise that coke and comics has lavished on "A Midsummer Night's Dream," which is one of my favorite single issue-stories ever. I'm curious, ish, as to why it didn't work for you; not trying to convert you, just wondering why it didn't grab you. Are you referring to issue #19? I did like it, it was only the first few issues that didn't enthrall me but at least they slowly improved. That first issue just felt distant to me, didn't connect with any of the characters, felt a bit disjointed. |
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Post by coke & comics on Feb 28, 2016 18:13:49 GMT -5
Somehow missed this thread. I don't feel really qualified to comment much on the entire series, though I recall reading the first dozen or 15 issues and trying hard to get into it. I recognized the scope of Gaiman’s ambition, his love for the concept of "story" and for old DC characters. (The story of the Element Girl lingers as one of the memorable ones.) I didn't stick with it, though, and have always thought that I should give it another try, especially since it's so readily available in collections at most nearby libraries. However, and it's a big however, I have to agree with the praise that coke and comics has lavished on "A Midsummer Night's Dream," which is one of my favorite single issue-stories ever. I'm curious, ish, as to why it didn't work for you; not trying to convert you, just wondering why it didn't grab you. For me -- and I know I've written about my admiration for this story before, perhaps in one of the Christmas events -- the story does so much so admirably: illustrates a truly fantastic (in the original sense of the word) realm of Faerie that properly shows how it was imagined centuries ago; tells the story of one of the last ventures of its residents into our world; reveals the specific challenges of life for an actor and/or playwright, or for that matter, for any artist -- then and now; beautifully interweaves the conceit that the "real" faeries are the prototypes of Shakespeare's complete with the faeries’ running commentary on the characters; plays splendid tribute to Shakespeare’s language and artfully uses it to comment on what is really the most important part of the story: the devastating sadness young Hamnet Shakespeare feels because of his egotistical, prideful father’s blindness to his plight. Gaiman’s final lines, wedded so nicely with Vess’s panels, achieve a poignancy almost never seen in comics, which – and this is not a knock – rarely rise above melodrama. (It’s like comparing the work of Sondheim to that of Leslie Bricusse.) The feeling of loss, of chances missed, of a woeful price paid for foolishness, remind us of similar achingly beautiful moments in Shakespeare, most obviously Act Five of King Lear. It haunts me still. Well said. I've been working on an essay I intend to post eventually about that issue and how much the rest of the series reflects its strengths. Which is to say, if you can love that issue, you can love the series. There is much to like in the first 18 issues, but that issue transcends them. But it also sets the target for what is to follow. As I said above, I think Gaiman reaches similar heights again with the standalone story Ramadan in issue 50, and with the epic arc Brief Lives in #41-49. But more than that, he manages to turn the entire 75 issue series into something that feels like a single compelling story. It seems like a series that should be part of every comic fan's vocabulary. |
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Post by coke & comics on Feb 28, 2016 18:52:12 GMT -5
Pretty much. World's End is a significant departure from the rest of the series that, despite a few clever moments, generally bored me, but the rest is fantastic. Season of Mists was the first multi-part storyline to truly wow me as well. Having just reread this arc, I can't agree. I agree it's not the best arc; but I see that as a reflection on how good some of the other arcs and short stories are, rather than a knock on this. And when viewed as a collection of short stories, I think the stories collected in "Dream Country" or "Fables and Reflections" are on the whole stronger. But it's not really a collection of short stories, but a single Cantebury Tales-inspired story, and taken as a single book, I find it to be a quite emotionally resonant one. The first half of the series was plagued by problems beyond Gaiman's control, mainly the unpredictability of artist availability. The inconsistent artwork really takes it toll on Doll's House and Game of You. But for the second half of the series, Gaiman and Berger seem to have nipped that in the bud. And World's End is able to provide a wonderful controlled artist showcase, with Talbot and Buckingham providing the main story, and a whole host of talented artists taking on the stories within stories. Including Mike Allred telling a Prez story! I think World's End is a fine, fine story. In that it is composed of nice little tales, that it makes a singular moving arc, and that it resonates well in its place in the series, showing us through the eyes of effected denizens across the realms the consequences of Dream's actions in Brief Lives and helping us feel the emotional impact. I certainly think it's one of the great stories of the series. |
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Post by berkley on Feb 28, 2016 23:38:01 GMT -5
My Vertigo purchases these day are down to Unwritten (for as long as that'll last. Hasn't it finished already in singles?) and Hinterkind. I wanted to check out FBP, but there are so many good series coming out right now, mostly from Image. You're right that Image pretty much took over from Vertigo (Vertigo has an advantage for writers/artists in that they are paid up front, but it's probably not enough to offset the advantages Image offers.) The Unwritten ended last month.
Yeah, I think Vertigo for the most part is going to be mid-level creators who need a regular paycheck for regular series moving forward and bigger names just doing minis. Image has the best deal in the industry if you already have an established audience, but there's a lot risk involved.
Still, I'll take an Ian Edgington ongoing Vertigo series any day of the week.
is finished? Forgot it had been so long since the last collection came out. I'll have to start over and read it from the beginning. Is it really advisable to read Sandman before Carey's Lucifer? I mean apart from the intrinsic quality of Sandman in itself - I realise that most people here would say read that first regardless because it's so good. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Feb 29, 2016 0:26:09 GMT -5
Is it really advisable to read Sandman before Carey's Lucifer? I mean apart from the intrinsic quality of Sandman in itself - I realise that most people here would say read that first regardless because it's so good. I read the complete Sandman run and the recently finished mini for the first time in 2015. (Kind of ashamed to admit I waited so long but at least its no longer my cross to bear). I read the first trade book of Lucifer and then realized I needed to read other types of things before I went back to it. I have to vary what I read to keep my mind fresh. When will I go back to Lucifer? Someday, but I'm not in a rush |
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 29, 2016 0:28:07 GMT -5
I picked up the entire run of Sandman on Comixology about a year ago. I had reprints of the early issues previously and found it hard to get through and wasn't seeing what everyone was raving about.
The first arc was clunky but I enjoyed the integration with the rest of the DCU. Editorial was smart in looping in those elements, but it's obvious they were trying to figure out what this title was exactly.
The Guided View format I love on Comixology enhanced my Sandman reading experience. It was easier to get through this first arc, and each arc after gained momentum IMO.
One of my brothers started it and stalled around #19 or so.
Just picked up the entire run of Lucifer which I'll read after my Valiants (which I'm really loving).
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Post by coke & comics on Feb 29, 2016 1:18:59 GMT -5
The Unwritten ended last month.
Yeah, I think Vertigo for the most part is going to be mid-level creators who need a regular paycheck for regular series moving forward and bigger names just doing minis. Image has the best deal in the industry if you already have an established audience, but there's a lot risk involved.
Still, I'll take an Ian Edgington ongoing Vertigo series any day of the week.
is finished? Forgot it had been so long since the last collection came out. I'll have to start over and read it from the beginning. Is it really advisable to read Sandman before Carey's Lucifer? I mean apart from the intrinsic quality of Sandman in itself - I realise that most people here would say read that first regardless because it's so good. I think so. If for no other reason than Lucifer spoils a twist in Sandman. But Sandman gives Lucifer its context. After all, it was called Sandman Presents: Lucifer |
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Post by berkley on Feb 29, 2016 1:29:47 GMT -5
I will have to overcome my dislike of Gaiman and give Sandman a fair chance one of these days.
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Post by coke & comics on Mar 1, 2016 5:32:05 GMT -5
If you're a comic fan, I think it's fair of others to just assume you've read Sandman.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 1, 2016 8:30:42 GMT -5
I will have to overcome my dislike of Gaiman and give Sandman a fair chance one of these days. I think you will find it to your liking. Sandman is, in my opinion, one of the best-written comics I've had the chance to come across, and I say that as someone who finds most of Gaiman's prose work irritating. In Sandman Gaiman not only told great stories, amusing and tragic, human and cosmic, but also weaved an overall tapestry in which every little thread contributes to the whole in ways we couldn't have predicted at the beginning. I remember thinking, after reading the first issue, "no way is this book going beyond #6. It's way too smart for today's market". I'm glad the readers and the book proved me wrong! (I'd avoid Ouverture, however. It's an unnecessary story, like a one-chapter prequel to The Illiad). |
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Post by dupersuper on Mar 2, 2016 0:56:42 GMT -5
How do you dislike Gaiman?
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Post by berkley on Mar 3, 2016 1:50:44 GMT -5
How do you dislike Gaiman? It's easy: you put your right foot forward then turn to the left ... |
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