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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 18, 2015 13:05:29 GMT -5
But every time Spider-man was a supporting character in a book without his name on the indicia it was just an awful, awful story. Like, when he showed up in the Human Torch strip it wasn't just a below average Spider-man story... it wasn't even one of the best Human Torch solo stories!
... I guess he worked pretty well in Daredevil, although it can certainly argue that Spider-man caused Mike Murdock and we should hold that against him.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Mar 18, 2015 15:25:41 GMT -5
Well, now I picked up TTA #57 a year or so ago (same date as ASM #14) and thought it was a decent, albeit abbreviated (16 pgs.) story. It being Marvel, the heroes are naturally first tricked into fighting one another before joining forces against their common enemy, in this case Egghead. What I like about it though is that even after they team up, there is still a palpable animosity between Giant-Man and the Wasp and Spider-Man. They simply don't like each other. How refreshingly human and relatable! In a DC book, the heroes would have been complimenting each other's skills and making plans to get together again soon. Not here. These Marvel heroes are willing to tolerate one another long enough to get the job done, and that's it.
I agree with you about his appearances in Strange Tales and FF being underwhelming. Likewise, I think that Daredevil cross-over was very strong, helped immensely by the Romita art. I haven't read Avengers #11, so cannot assess its quality.
Perhaps a partial answer is that so much of what makes Spider-Man great during this period is his milieu, the stresses that plague Peter Parker, and his supporting cast. Lifted out of this rich environment, the character loses certain qualities that are integral to him. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 18, 2015 15:37:02 GMT -5
I remember in the 1970s, I traded Spider-Man #20 for Avengers #11, and BOY did I feel ripped off after I read Avengers #11! I won't go into the specifics so as not to ruin it for those who haven't read it, but it is very disappointing for the second appearance of Kang. (His first appearance is in #8, and that's a great story.) Of course, the Avengers was just entering a bit of a slump as #12 and #14 aren't very good either. And #13 is just OK as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not too keen on Strange Tales Annual #2 either but that's loaded with tons of reprints from Tales to Astonish, Strange Worlds, Journey into Unknown Worlds and etc., so it's worth it.
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Post by Phil Maurice on Mar 18, 2015 15:54:12 GMT -5
I'm not too keen on Strange Tales Annual #2 either but that's loaded with tons of reprints from Tales to Astonish, Strange Worlds, Journey into Unknown Worlds and etc., so it's worth it. Spider-Man also has a tiny, but effective cameo in ST #115 (2nd Sandman). He's presented as a weird, mysterious figure. I think it would have been an intriguing promo for a reader who was unfamiliar with this relatively new character. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 18, 2015 17:18:14 GMT -5
Perhaps a partial answer is that so much of what makes Spider-Man great during this period is his milieu, the stresses that plague Peter Parker, and his supporting cast. Lifted out of this rich environment, the character loses certain qualities that are integral to him. I think that's part of it, the other piece being that the character simply never looked right when drawn by anybody other than Ditko. Neither Kirby, Ayers nor Heck understood how to pose Spidey to give him that unique spidery action that was so much a part of his appeal (heck, Kirby couldn't even get the costume right). Romita, by contrast, clearly studied Ditko's art before drawing that Daredevil two-parter. Their approaches to anatomy are too different for it to have been 100% effective but Romita nonetheless approximated the feel of the character closely enough to make Stan confident about moving him into the Amazing penciller role when Ditko quit. Cei-U! I summon the tough assignment! |
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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 18, 2015 17:45:49 GMT -5
There's also a Spidey appearance in X-Men. I read it in an Essential X-Men volume last year, but I don't remember it very well. Since X-Men was kind of bad at times during that period, I would probably remember the Spider-Man story if it was particularly bad and I would certainly remember if it was good. So it's probably very average.
I think the Spidey issue was right before the Factor Three storyline got going. And I think X-Men got a lot better when the Factor Three story was happening.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 18, 2015 18:18:46 GMT -5
But every time Spider-man was a supporting character in a book without his name on the indicia it was just an awful, awful story. Yes! YES!! I have always wondered why this is too. Thanks for bringing it up Reptisaurus!As Cei-U! mentioned above, other artist's inability to draw Spidey right, like Ditko did, don't help his guest appearances any (and I also agree with Kurt that Kirby was the worst of the lot at depicting the wall-crawler during this period). I remember in the 1970s, I traded Spider-Man #20 for Avengers #11, and BOY did I feel ripped off after I read Avengers #11! LOL...man, worst comics trade ever!  Amazing Spider-Man #20 is my all-time favourite comic of the Lee/Ditko run. Avengers #11, on the other hand, I only read for the first time a couple of months ago. I found it pretty boring at the time and now, just 8 or so weeks later, I remember virtually nothing about it. Unmemorable is the word. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 18, 2015 18:42:03 GMT -5
I remember in the 1970s, I traded Spider-Man #20 for Avengers #11, and BOY did I feel ripped off after I read Avengers #11! LOL...man, worst comics trade ever! I paid $3.25 for that Spider-Man #20 and I'd had it for a few years at that point. It's condition was probably VG/F. And Spider-Man reprints were all over the place! I think I had a reprint of Spider-Man #20 in a paperback edition by then. And I was just starting to get a few Silver Age Avengers, mostly in reprints.
One of my friends had decided to focus on Spider-Man and he wanted my #20, and I was curious about old Avengers stories - I think I had a very beat-up #6 and I had read #1 in Son of Origins - so we traded. It seemed like a fair trade because they came out the same month.
But, yeah, Spider-Man #20 is great! It was one of the very first vintage comics I ever bought. I remember that story very well just because I read it so many times in those months after I first got it. Like those close-ups on the Scorpion's face as he gets more and more insane! And the scientist who created him - Dr. Stillwell, I think - trying to follow him up the side of the building and falling to his death.
Cool stuff! I also had a #17 from very early on, and that was another great one!
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 18, 2015 18:48:21 GMT -5
But, yeah, Spider-Man #20 is great! It was one of the very first vintage comics I ever bought. I remember that story very well just because I read it so many times in those months after I first got it. Like those close-ups on the Scorpion's face as he gets more and more insane! And the scientist who created him - Dr. Stillwell, I think - trying to follow him up the side of the building and falling to his death. Likewise. I brought a reprint of ASM #20 in Marvel Tales #158 off of the comic shelf in late 1983. I read that sucker over and over and over again. It's just a fantastic comic and like you, there are at least a dozen or so panels from it that I can call to mind without even really thinking about it. ASM #5 is another all-time favourite from the Ditko era. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 18, 2015 19:06:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I love Spidey #5 as well. Ditko's version of the Thing is repulsive! He looks a little slimy, not just lumpy like the Kirby version at that point, but also physically repellent like he's got some sticky, gross liquid oozing out of his hide.
And Ditko's Dr. Doom is crazy-looking! Like he's a doll and the arms and legs haven't been fitted correctly! Like he's about to fall apart! It's very unsettling.
The best part is where Flash is dressed as Spidey to scare Peter, and Doom nabs Flash by mistake! That is hilarious! Just one of those Merry Marvel Moments from the early days that was so fun and made the Marvels (especially Spider-Man) such great comics.
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Post by marvelmaniac on Mar 18, 2015 20:12:10 GMT -5
There's also a Spidey appearance in X-Men. I read it in an Essential X-Men volume last year, but I don't remember it very well. Since X-Men was kind of bad at times during that period, I would probably remember the Spider-Man story if it was particularly bad and I would certainly remember if it was good. So it's probably very average. I think the Spidey issue was right before the Factor Three storyline got going. And I think X-Men got a lot better when the Factor Three story was happening.  |
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Post by Rob Allen on Mar 19, 2015 11:25:00 GMT -5
A bit of thread crossover - I think Kurt once told me that Cyclops' pose on this cover is a swipe from a Kirby panel somewhere. Anyone recognize it? |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 19, 2015 11:34:17 GMT -5
A bit of thread crossover - I think Kurt once told me that Cyclops' pose on this cover is a swipe from a Kirby panel somewhere. Anyone recognize it? It does look very Kirbyesque, but I can't place it exactly. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 19, 2015 14:37:01 GMT -5
Perhaps a partial answer is that so much of what makes Spider-Man great during this period is his milieu, the stresses that plague Peter Parker, and his supporting cast. Lifted out of this rich environment, the character loses certain qualities that are integral to him. I think that's part of it, the other piece being that the character simply never looked right when drawn by anybody other than Ditko. Neither Kirby, Ayers nor Heck understood how to pose Spidey to give him that unique spidery action that was so much a part of his appeal (heck, Kirby couldn't even get the costume right). Romita, by contrast, clearly studied Ditko's art before drawing that Daredevil two-parter. Their approaches to anatomy are too different for it to have been 100% effective but Romita nonetheless approximated the feel of the character closely enough to make Stan confident about moving him into the Amazing penciller role when Ditko quit. Cei-U! I summon the tough assignment! Huh. That's the best explanation I've heard - Romita did research! Which Don Heck failed to do. (Although, actually, Heck's skill set SHOULD have made him a pretty good Spider-man artist.) I liked Colan's Spider-man-appearance-in-Daredevil as well , although I don't get the sense he studied Ditko or Romita's work. Maybe it's just that Colan is always great, and it's hard to go wrong with Spider-man vs. Stilt-Man anyway. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 19, 2015 15:21:31 GMT -5
There's also a Spidey appearance in X-Men. I read it in an Essential X-Men volume last year, but I don't remember it very well. Since X-Men was kind of bad at times during that period, I would probably remember the Spider-Man story if it was particularly bad and I would certainly remember if it was good. So it's probably very average. I think the Spidey issue was right before the Factor Three storyline got going. And I think X-Men got a lot better when the Factor Three story was happening. I remember that story, and I would indeed say it's very average. |
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